Note that ANACONDA is another in the CB&Q paint. For the FW&D.
If you look in Dubins Pullman P&L notebook, in the back are some
paint chips - note that the CB&Q Aluminum is different than the Rock
Island's version (the referenced Aluminum Grey).
The ELMs were actually painted DARK grey - according to the book - it
is the same as NYC dark grey. The problem with greys - as with any
sort of imitation of metal (wether grey, aluminum, "steel", etc.) is
that a lot depends on the day it was photographed - and the reflexive
qualities of the car at the time that photo was taken. You get a
color photo from the earl 1940's, taken on one of the (few) bright
sunny winter days with snow on the ground at Calumet or PCW - and
you'd swear the darned thing was (take your pick) gunmetal, grey,
light grey, dark grey, silver, aluminum, bluish grey, etc. Depending
on so many factors. Too, without a light grey stripe to provide the
contrast, it's harder to determine the "darkness" of the color (and I
KNOW that color and tone and all that can be (and have been) argued
endlessly. Eyes and how they capture the colors are different as
well. I see green in freshly poured grey cement and freshly painted
grey cement hoppers. Others think I'm crazy (and they are likely
right) - but, that is how my eye captures the color and how my brain
(or lack thereof) figures out what it is.
ELM, ASH, OAK, FIR & BEECH cars all wore that scheme. It does not
mention the TOWER cars - with good reason, as a lot of them were
painted multiple times (and some from the start) for the railroad's
trains - they were some of the best HW cars for including into trains
to provide the perception of "new" cars.
But, it is important not to take the P&L notebook as gospel - as
(with the case of the books providing that description) there is a
lot of material missing and/or modified in the printing and / or
editing process. There are so many variables involved that it is
hard to say for certain what got what - unless the specification is
looked at (if available). And even then, it depends on so many
factors as to what the car looked like.
Now, ZEPHYR TOWER is different than DENVER TOWER in the paint
treatment - I suspect for the same reason that RI cars had a
different paint than CB&Q cars. It is interesting to note that the
only Aluminum Grey in the book is related to the CRI&P (as opposed to
imitation aluminum).
What we know is that the cars were painted in the railroad's
preferred scheme - after divestiture. Which is when the colors start
changing (except for ZEPHYR TOWER which was not assigned specifically
to the CB&Q only)
MDH, MDD and L&P drawings are all different (though they MAY have the
same numbers pertaining to the same cars making other similarities
that don't work confusing). Then there are the C&D sketches.
More research may reveal something interesting - note that the IC had
some TOWER cars that were painted from the beginning in IC colors.
At 09:54 PM 3/3/2008, you wrote:
>The Falles (Dubin Collection) Pullman P&L notebooks show sketches
>for the Cedar Rapids / Zephyr Tower and the Spanish Range
>(presumeably the rest of the Range and Crest series).
>No mention is made of the Missouri, Denver, or Rocket Tower.
>The following was called out on the notebook sketches:
>
>CRI&P Cedar Rapids ex- Villa Anita shipped 12/13/40
>CB&Q Minneapolis ex- Clan McGregor shipped 12/16/40 (I
>hadn't noticed this car before!!) According to Ted's list it, too,
>got the skirt treatment.
>Dulux Black MDH 3728/29/30/31 Lettering Silver Bronze Body
>Murphy's Silver Enamel E1114 (Silver Bronze)
>
>CRI&P Cedar Rapids shipped
>10/04/43 (second notation)
>CB&Q Zephyr Tower no pedigree noted shipped 10/11/43
>Exterior & Vest. AC Horns (???) Ena. Silver Grey #1020-L465 Shop
>Order #1542 09/08/43 Dulux Black Lettering MDH 3728
>
>CB&Q Spanish Range Plan # 3046 & Plan #3410 6 Cars (
>_Range & _Crest for Texas Zephyrs) CB&Q Print D 3725
>Dulux Black Lettering & Edging DuPont #95-004 MDH 3728/29/30/31
>Calumet Shops Color Samples #7 & #12 to be DuPont's Polychromatic
>Dulux Aluminum Striping to be
>DuPont's #95-021 Underneath Equipment and Trucks Painted Aluminum.
>
>Are the MDH and MDD drawings the same? On the notebook page the MDH
>3728/29/30/31 seem to refer to the lettering and ?? a CB&Q
>drawing. Is MDD3725A the same thing or
>a general L&P drawing???
>
>The only reference I have shows the Light Gray (1938 20th Century
>Spec file copy for the 23 Roomette Cars) color as Light Grey
>Polychromatic to match DuPont #8576. This doesn't match any of the
>above Silver or Bronze Greys.
>
> From the delivery photos of the Range and Crest cars I would guess
> that the NYC Lt. Grey is not the color...it is much darket than
> these cars which were intended to blend in with Stainless Steel
>Budd equipment. I agree that the repaints might have been a real
>Aluminum color. I do recall the Power Cars and SSS cars being a
>Grayish Aluminum.. not the same Silver, for example, as the
>pilots of F units.... perhaps later they were "real" aluminum... any
>recollections???
>
>I will have to look at the DuPont reference book to see what DuPont
>numbers the Pullman Dark and Light Greys carried. Anybody have CB&Q
>drawings for SSS cars? It would be interesting to
>see what the paint number references are.....
>
>Charlie Vlk
>
>
>
> The ELMS definitely had the light grey paint, as did (at least)
> DENVER TOWER - you can see the paint codes & painting dates in Tom's
> database. I can't recall where, but there is a really good color
> shot of an ELM in the grey paint - and it is the same light grey as
> on the pool cars. I believe there was a discussion on the PCL list
> concerning the painting of the rebuilds and then the repainting upon
> divestiture and assignment.
>
> We know that not all paint changes are in the database, just as all
> paint changes - and the original paint schemes - are in the Dubin P&L
> book. In some cases, you have to extrapolate from known policies, and
> in others, you have to look at the specs for the given cars as rebuilt.
>
> I have seen a color photo though of one of the TOWERS that was NOT an
> aluminum.
>
> ROCKET TOWER was a rebuild of a 3584-B car,. COSTELLA PEAK. 3-41
> (painting: CB&Q Streamline colors; MDD3725A (nd); D6083 RI Aluminum
> bronze (4/30/53)
> ZEPHYR TOWER was a rebuild of a 3584-B TETON PEAK 3-41 (only paint
> notation, is the 1951 paint into CB&Q colors - which makes one wonder
> what it was before - grey)
> DENVER TOWER was a rebuild of a 3584-A POINT CASWELL 10-41 (paint:
> Aluminum; Gray (11/29/43); MDD3725A (11/13/53)
>
> Note that they are painted INTO CB&Q colors after at least 2 years of
> being on the road - in one case 10 years after.
> What were they painted in before that? Standard rebuild scheme -
> overall grey.
>
> At 08:18 PM 3/3/2008, Charlie Vlk wrote:
> >Bob-
> >I don't think the Elms and other "Silver" cars have Pool Car Light
> >Grey Paint......
> >The Pullman P&L Notebook has sketches for the schemes for the
> >C&S/FW&D and CB&Q/RI cars and none of them
> >reference the same Light Gray as the Pool Cars (same paint as
> >NYC). There is a CB&Q Imitation Aluminum (which is
> >not the Imitation Aluminum we know and love on F Units....debate for
> >another thread). The TZ cars have THREE different
> >Silver-ish paints called out...for the Pier Panels, the Stripes on
> >the Belt Rail/Letterboard Rails, and the rest of the carbody.
> >The Zephyr Rocket cars have a different paint called out. The
> >color samples in the back of the book do not match the paint
> >manufactuer numbers shown in the body of the book but the Pool and
> >NYC cars are uniformly referenced as "Dark Gray" and
> >"Light Gray", not Silver Grey or Dulux Aluminum as the Q cars paint
> >is referenced as.
> >I don't know what the CB&Q specs called for when and if they
> >repainted the car but both Pullman notebook pages reference
> >CB&Q L&P drawings. It appears that the Zephyr Tower was shipped
> >after the Cedar Rapids (???renamed Rocket Tower or
> >another car???) and the paint was different for the RI car as it has
> >a different reference crossed out.
> >Charlie Vlk
> >
> >The paint used originally in DENVER & ZEPHYR TOWER (I don't know
> >about MISSOURI or ROCKET - would have to look) were originally the
> >Pullman light grey scheme - like the ELMs got. Only after 1948 (1954
> >in one case) did they get the CB&Q aluminum scheme. In photos (b/w,
> >and some color, depending on a lot of factors), the scheme is nearly
> >the same - but... if you were to look at the paint itself, the light
> >Pullman grey (which is the paint used in the two tone scheme) is
> >non-metallic and a deeper hue. The CB&Q paint is meant to serve with
> >the Zephyr fleet better. The CB&Q paint is the same as that you'd
> >find under most of the Shadowlining schemes.
> >
> >.
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Bob Webber
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Bob Webber
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