Re: [CBQ] Pullman and sleeping cars

[Bob Webber <cz17@comcast.net>]

A few things:

Note that the exterior of the chair & coach are almost
identical.  The Plans are 1249 & 1250 so there were differences
(aside from the seats).   The WISCONSIN was an open platform
obs-parlor-cafe.  Which made it easy to take on and put off. 
Note that the Pullmans were after the
buffet-library-smoker-baggage.  Not unusual for the period, but that
underlines the use of the composite as a first class car.  The
composite, coach & chair all read BURLINGTON, but that doesn't
preclude ownership by Pullman.  Usually, though if such were the
case, there would be an indication - somewhere - that it was affiliated
with Pullman.   A beautiful train - though hyperbole is the
order of the day.   

If interested, this wouldn't be too difficult to model.  Westwood
made a 16 section, composite and a compartment car (slight differences in
the window pattern are easily overcome with the modular design of
Westwood). The most difficult part may be the diaphragms and vestibules,
but I haven't looked at a kit for a while (it might be fin as is).   I'd
have to look at the coaches - the B&O cars might not be far removed,
but you could certainly make some with Labelle kits.   A lot
easier to put this one together than, say, the Aristocrat or Blackhawk of
later years.  Or even (aside from brass), some of the LW
trains.   The Exposition train by Westerfield might also be an
option, but modifying resin bodies is a lot harder.  


At 10:42 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:


> Bob and Rupert,  If you
> have the book MORE CLASSIC TRAINS by Dubin, this train is wonderfully
> described as the finest train in the  world.  Some great
> interior shots as well as the entire group of cars.  This was a two
> train set.  In 1901 a diner or cafe=parlor was added to serve meals
> between Chicago and Rochelle.  It was named Wisconsin.  I was
> lucky to find an 1897 public timetable with this nice info inserted in
> it.  Archie
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
>
> > Well... not quite.  First,
> > this is one reason I used the HW steel era, a lot less convoluted and
> > confusing!  
> >
> > First, it is important to understand at least one definition. 
> > "Composite" is not (necessarily) an indication that the car was
> > built with multiple media (i.e., wood & steel), but rather, it is a
> > car of mixed capabilities.  This is the Pullman
> > definition.   And..once again, a definition of Pullman - it can
> > and usually is used for Pullman & Co., Pullman-Standard, The Pullman
> > Co., Pullman Palace Car Co., etc.    If you look
> > here:
> > http://pullmancar.org/Research.htm
> > you'll see a time-line of the companies.
> >
> > Ok, let's go through the train:
> >
> > ST. PAUL.  I could not find a record for this car, but then the
> > records are slim.  It becomes a little harder to determine who is
> > the owner - Pullman (and predecessors) often owned and/or operated
> > composite cars as this was one of the favored configurations for 1st
> > class lounge or smoker cars / buffet cars (which may explain the absence
> > of the diner).  - that would normally, in that era, be owned by the
> > Pullman Palace Car Co.  The B&O, PRR, NYC, C&O, SOU all had
> > these "Pullman" owned & operated cars at various
> > times.  Whoopsie - here it is - ST. PAUL  (& MINNEAPOLIS)
> > were composite smoking baggage cars - owned & operated by The Pullman
> > Palace Car Co.  While not saying outright that there was or was not
> > a buffet, there is that possibility. 
> >
> > PANTHENON (&, PARTHENON) were 16 section cars owned and operated by
> > the Pullman Palace Car Co. 
> >
> > APOLLO (& ANGELO) were 7 stateroom, 2 drawing room cars owned and
> > operated by the Pullman Palace Car Co. 
> >
> > ALMA & WINONA - these names (or numbers - or even a CB&Q purchase
> > in 1897) aren't found, and it is strange.  ALMA was numbered 366 and
> > was owned & operated by CB&Q.  I can not find it built in
> > 1897, though Bill's roster indicates so.  As he lists WINONA
> > (406).  I'd like to locate the Lot numbers for those
> > cars.   Then I might be able to find the Plans and drawings for
> > the cars. 
> >
> > The problem with generalities is that as soon as you (rather, in this
> > case, I) spout one off, someone will come up with an example of something
> > that you forgot or felt wouldn't be germane to the topic.  The one
> > thing I can tell you is it is absolutely critical to include a date range
> > when discussing any passenger car or train.  The steel era, for
> > Pullman, started in 1906 (with JAMESTOWN) , but is generally considered
> > to be about 1910.  The years between 1890 and 1915 are fraught with
> > all sorts of strange beasties, partially due to mergers and acquisitions
> > (Pullman bought out Mann's and other companies as well as re-purchasing
> > cars that had been bought by railroads or associations so standards were
> > out the window) and partially due to the transition from open platform to
> > narrow vestibule to wide vestibule to SUF (steel underframe) to SUV
> > (steel underframe and vestibule) to all steel.   All this to
> > explain why I cowardly attempted to limit the era to steel HW. 
> >
> > At 12:27 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:
> > >  
> > John, Bob and Rich
> >
> > Thank you for your responses and information. It's more complicated that
> > I anticipated so I'll come back with more queries later.
> >
> > In passing, I've just found an 1897 article about a train built for the
> > Chicago - St Paul service (Burlington Limited) 
> > "Probably the finest train of cars in the world was recently
> > completed at the Pullman Car Works  for service on the
> > CB&Q.  The names of these cars were "St Paul" for the
> > composite car, "Parthenon" for the straight sleeper,
> > "Apollo" for the compartment car, "Alma" for the
> > chair car and "Winona" for the day coach." (I note there
> > is no mention of dining cars.)
> >
> > The article, which includes a photo of the train and interior shots,
> > extols the quality of equipment and their beauty. Would I be correct,
> > then, that Parthenon and Apollo (together with Pantheon and Angelo) were
> > owned by Pullman and the other cars were owned by the
> > Burlington?
> >
> > Thanks again
> >  
> > Rupert
> >  
> >
> >
> > Bob Webber

Bob Webber

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