Re: [CBQ] Pullman and sleeping cars

[Bob Webber <cz17@comcast.net>]

Whoopsie again - I did find the Chair & Coach - and the
reason I missed it before is that (as with the ST. PAUL), the second name
is unreadable - in all three cases, the 2nd name being the one you sent.

So....  MAIDEN ROCK & ALMA - chair cars - initially owned and
operated by Pullman Palace Car Co.   (This may be indicated
solely for the initial period of the train, not for more than a year or
so - more later).

SAVANNA & WINONA - coaches - initially owned & operated by
Pullman Palace Car Co.   

Now... it may well be that the train as a whole was used at an exposition
as a "Pullman Palace Car Co." product, while the intention was
to sell the coaches & chair cars to CB&Q.  Certainly, the
use of named cars at this date is unusual for CB&Q.  And,
Pullman did display another train as an exposition piece at the Columbian
Exposition (and another at a St. Louis fair).  However, it must be
said, Pullman did operate coaches & chair cars (as well as baggage,
mail and composites) - especially around this time.  Usually the
ownership was short lived (except for those that were leased south of the
border).  The Lot book does not indicate ownership by the CB&Q
on any of the cars.  Unusual for any number of reasons - but these
cars are not "usual".    If nothing else, this
adds data to the lsit for my purposes - thanks!  

It could also be a "proof of concept" train - that is, Pullman
built, owned & operated it in entirety until CB&Q decided it was
OK.  That wasn't that unusual.  It would be nice to find the
builders photos to see how they were decorated.  



At 09:50 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:


> Well... not quite.  First,
> this is one reason I used the HW steel era, a lot less convoluted and
> confusing!  
>
> First, it is important to understand at least one definition. 
> "Composite" is not (necessarily) an indication that the car was
> built with multiple media (i.e., wood & steel), but rather, it is a
> car of mixed capabilities.  This is the Pullman
> definition.   And..once again, a definition of Pullman - it can
> and usually is used for Pullman & Co., Pullman-Standard, The Pullman
> Co., Pullman Palace Car Co., etc.    If you look
> here:
> http://pullmancar.org/Research.htm
> you'll see a time-line of the companies.
>
> Ok, let's go through the train:
>
> ST. PAUL.  I could not find a record for this car, but then the
> records are slim.  It becomes a little harder to determine who is
> the owner - Pullman (and predecessors) often owned and/or operated
> composite cars as this was one of the favored configurations for 1st
> class lounge or smoker cars / buffet cars (which may explain the absence
> of the diner).  - that would normally, in that era, be owned by the
> Pullman Palace Car Co.  The B&O, PRR, NYC, C&O, SOU all had
> these "Pullman" owned & operated cars at various
> times.  Whoopsie - here it is - ST. PAUL  (& MINNEAPOLIS)
> were composite smoking baggage cars - owned & operated by The Pullman
> Palace Car Co.  While not saying outright that there was or was not
> a buffet, there is that possibility. 
>
> PANTHENON (&, PARTHENON) were 16 section cars owned and operated by
> the Pullman Palace Car Co. 
>
> APOLLO (& ANGELO) were 7 stateroom, 2 drawing room cars owned and
> operated by the Pullman Palace Car Co. 
>
> ALMA & WINONA - these names (or numbers - or even a CB&Q purchase
> in 1897) aren't found, and it is strange.  ALMA was numbered 366 and
> was owned & operated by CB&Q.  I can not find it built in
> 1897, though Bill's roster indicates so.  As he lists WINONA
> (406).  I'd like to locate the Lot numbers for those
> cars.   Then I might be able to find the Plans and drawings for
> the cars. 
>
> The problem with generalities is that as soon as you (rather, in this
> case, I) spout one off, someone will come up with an example of something
> that you forgot or felt wouldn't be germane to the topic.  The one
> thing I can tell you is it is absolutely critical to include a date range
> when discussing any passenger car or train.  The steel era, for
> Pullman, started in 1906 (with JAMESTOWN) , but is generally considered
> to be about 1910.  The years between 1890 and 1915 are fraught with
> all sorts of strange beasties, partially due to mergers and acquisitions
> (Pullman bought out Mann's and other companies as well as re-purchasing
> cars that had been bought by railroads or associations so standards were
> out the window) and partially due to the transition from open platform to
> narrow vestibule to wide vestibule to SUF (steel underframe) to SUV
> (steel underframe and vestibule) to all steel.   All this to
> explain why I cowardly attempted to limit the era to steel HW. 
>
> At 12:27 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:
> >  
> >
> > John, Bob and Rich
> >
> > Thank you for your responses and information. It's more complicated that
> > I anticipated so I'll come back with more queries later.
> >
> > In passing, I've just found an 1897 article about a train built for the
> > Chicago - St Paul service (Burlington Limited) 
> > "Probably the finest train of cars in the world was recently
> > completed at the Pullman Car Works  for service on the
> > CB&Q.  The names of these cars were "St Paul" for the
> > composite car, "Parthenon" for the straight sleeper,
> > "Apollo" for the compartment car, "Alma" for the
> > chair car and "Winona" for the day coach." (I note there
> > is no mention of dining cars.)
> >
> > The article, which includes a photo of the train and interior shots,
> > extols the quality of equipment and their beauty. Would I be correct,
> > then, that Parthenon and Apollo (together with Pantheon and Angelo) were
> > owned by Pullman and the other cars were owned by the
> > Burlington?
> >
> > Thanks again
> >  
> > Rupert
> >  
> Bob Webber

Bob Webber

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