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Re: [CBQ] Pullman and sleeping cars

To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Pullman and sleeping cars
From: Bob Webber <cz17@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:53:02 -0600
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Thanks, Archie - I'll take a look (long time between reading it and the Trains articles that formed the basis) - the Wisconsin was "built in 1902" along with  ILLINOIS, IOWA, MINNESOTA, NEBRASKA.   Dates in the books vary from construction, order, call, delivery and a few other dates - requires reading the specs to find out which was used for a given Lot.  


At 10:42 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:


Bob and Rupert,  If you have the book MORE CLASSIC TRAINS by Dubin, this train is wonderfully described as the finest train in the  world.  Some great interior shots as well as the entire group of cars.  This was a two train set.  In 1901 a diner or cafe=parlor was added to serve meals between Chicago and Rochelle.  It was named Wisconsin.  I was lucky to find an 1897 public timetable with this nice info inserted in it.  Archie
On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Bob Webber wrote:

Well... not quite.  First, this is one reason I used the HW steel era, a lot less convoluted and confusing! 

First, it is important to understand at least one definition.  "Composite" is not (necessarily) an indication that the car was built with multiple media (i.e., wood & steel), but rather, it is a car of mixed capabilities.  This is the Pullman definition.   And..once again, a definition of Pullman - it can and usually is used for Pullman & Co., Pullman-Standard, The Pullman Co., Pullman Palace Car Co., etc.    If you look here:
http://pullmancar.org/Research.htm
you'll see a time-line of the companies.

Ok, let's go through the train:

ST. PAUL.  I could not find a record for this car, but then the records are slim.  It becomes a little harder to determine who is the owner - Pullman (and predecessors) often owned and/or operated composite cars as this was one of the favored configurations for 1st class lounge or smoker cars / buffet cars (which may explain the absence of the diner).  - that would normally, in that era, be owned by the Pullman Palace Car Co.  The B&O, PRR, NYC, C&O, SOU all had these "Pullman" owned & operated cars at various times.  Whoopsie - here it is - ST. PAUL  (& MINNEAPOLIS) were composite smoking baggage cars - owned & operated by The Pullman Palace Car Co.  While not saying outright that there was or was not a buffet, there is that possibility.

PANTHENON (&, PARTHENON) were 16 section cars owned and operated by the Pullman Palace Car Co.

APOLLO (& ANGELO) were 7 stateroom, 2 drawing room cars owned and operated by the Pullman Palace Car Co.

ALMA & WINONA - these names (or numbers - or even a CB&Q purchase in 1897) aren't found, and it is strange.  ALMA was numbered 366 and was owned & operated by CB&Q.  I can not find it built in 1897, though Bill's roster indicates so.  As he lists WINONA (406).  I'd like to locate the Lot numbers for those cars.   Then I might be able to find the Plans and drawings for the cars.

The problem with generalities is that as soon as you (rather, in this case, I) spout one off, someone will come up with an example of something that you forgot or felt wouldn't be germane to the topic.  The one thing I can tell you is it is absolutely critical to include a date range when discussing any passenger car or train.  The steel era, for Pullman, started in 1906 (with JAMESTOWN) , but is generally considered to be about 1910.  The years between 1890 and 1915 are fraught with all sorts of strange beasties, partially due to mergers and acquisitions (Pullman bought out Mann's and other companies as well as re-purchasing cars that had been bought by railroads or associations so standards were out the window) and partially due to the transition from open platform to narrow vestibule to wide vestibule to SUF (steel underframe) to SUV (steel underframe and vestibule) to all steel.   All this to explain why I cowardly attempted to limit the era to steel HW. 

At 12:27 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:

John, Bob and Rich

Thank you for your responses and information. It's more complicated that I anticipated so I'll come back with more queries later.

In passing, I've just found an 1897 article about a train built for the Chicago - St Paul service (Burlington Limited)
"Probably the finest train of cars in the world was recently completed at the Pullman Car Works  for service on the CB&Q.  The names of these cars were "St Paul" for the composite car, "Parthenon" for the straight sleeper, "Apollo" for the compartment car, "Alma" for the chair car and "Winona" for the day coach." (I note there is no mention of dining cars.)

The article, which includes a photo of the train and interior shots, extols the quality of equipment and their beauty. Would I be correct, then, that Parthenon and Apollo (together with Pantheon and Angelo) were owned by Pullman and the other cars were owned by the Burlington?

Thanks again
 
Rupert
 


Bob Webber



Bob Webber

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