Thanks, Archie - I'll take a look (long time between reading
it and the Trains articles that formed the basis) - the Wisconsin was
"built in 1902" along with ILLINOIS, IOWA, MINNESOTA,
NEBRASKA. Dates in the books vary from construction, order,
call, delivery and a few other dates - requires reading the specs to find
out which was used for a given Lot.
At 10:42 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:
Bob and Rupert, If you
have the book MORE CLASSIC TRAINS by Dubin, this train is wonderfully
described as the finest train in the world. Some great
interior shots as well as the entire group of cars. This was a two
train set. In 1901 a diner or cafe=parlor was added to serve meals
between Chicago and Rochelle. It was named Wisconsin. I was
lucky to find an 1897 public timetable with this nice info inserted in
it. Archie
On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
Well... not quite. First,
this is one reason I used the HW steel era, a lot less convoluted and
confusing!
First, it is important to understand at least one definition.
"Composite" is not (necessarily) an indication that the car was
built with multiple media (i.e., wood & steel), but rather, it is a
car of mixed capabilities. This is the Pullman
definition. And..once again, a definition of Pullman - it can
and usually is used for Pullman & Co., Pullman-Standard, The Pullman
Co., Pullman Palace Car Co., etc. If you look
here:
http://pullmancar.org/Research.htm
you'll see a time-line of the companies.
Ok, let's go through the train:
ST. PAUL. I could not find a record for this car, but then the
records are slim. It becomes a little harder to determine who is
the owner - Pullman (and predecessors) often owned and/or operated
composite cars as this was one of the favored configurations for 1st
class lounge or smoker cars / buffet cars (which may explain the absence
of the diner). - that would normally, in that era, be owned by the
Pullman Palace Car Co. The B&O, PRR, NYC, C&O, SOU all had
these "Pullman" owned & operated cars at various
times. Whoopsie - here it is - ST. PAUL (& MINNEAPOLIS)
were composite smoking baggage cars - owned & operated by The Pullman
Palace Car Co. While not saying outright that there was or was not
a buffet, there is that possibility.
PANTHENON (&, PARTHENON) were 16 section cars owned and operated by
the Pullman Palace Car Co.
APOLLO (& ANGELO) were 7 stateroom, 2 drawing room cars owned and
operated by the Pullman Palace Car Co.
ALMA & WINONA - these names (or numbers - or even a CB&Q purchase
in 1897) aren't found, and it is strange. ALMA was numbered 366 and
was owned & operated by CB&Q. I can not find it built in
1897, though Bill's roster indicates so. As he lists WINONA
(406). I'd like to locate the Lot numbers for those
cars. Then I might be able to find the Plans and drawings for
the cars.
The problem with generalities is that as soon as you (rather, in this
case, I) spout one off, someone will come up with an example of something
that you forgot or felt wouldn't be germane to the topic. The one
thing I can tell you is it is absolutely critical to include a date range
when discussing any passenger car or train. The steel era, for
Pullman, started in 1906 (with JAMESTOWN) , but is generally considered
to be about 1910. The years between 1890 and 1915 are fraught with
all sorts of strange beasties, partially due to mergers and acquisitions
(Pullman bought out Mann's and other companies as well as re-purchasing
cars that had been bought by railroads or associations so standards were
out the window) and partially due to the transition from open platform to
narrow vestibule to wide vestibule to SUF (steel underframe) to SUV
(steel underframe and vestibule) to all steel. All this to
explain why I cowardly attempted to limit the era to steel HW.
At 12:27 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:

John, Bob and Rich
Thank you for your responses and information. It's more complicated that
I anticipated so I'll come back with more queries later.
In passing, I've just found an 1897 article about a train built for the
Chicago - St Paul service (Burlington Limited)
"Probably the finest train of cars in the world was recently
completed at the Pullman Car Works for service on the
CB&Q. The names of these cars were "St Paul" for the
composite car, "Parthenon" for the straight sleeper,
"Apollo" for the compartment car, "Alma" for the
chair car and "Winona" for the day coach." (I note there
is no mention of dining cars.)
The article, which includes a photo of the train and interior shots,
extols the quality of equipment and their beauty. Would I be correct,
then, that Parthenon and Apollo (together with Pantheon and Angelo) were
owned by Pullman and the other cars were owned by the
Burlington?
Thanks again
Rupert
Bob Webber
Bob Webber
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