Kirby I have never shipped hogs either. But I have spent a lot of time studying meat packing, livestock shipping, and railroads. I also live in farm country. Amazing what you can pick up by listening to your neighbors. My needs as a modeler has led me to learn a lot about many arcane subjects. And the more I research the more I learn. Burlington Bulletin #25 has a list of CBQ stockpens. I don’t recall if there is a list of hog drenchers on the Q, but it may contain such a list. I have seen hog drencher locations on ICC valuation maps/reports. AAR Pamphlet #19 on Livestock Shipping also contains information on hog drenchers. Hog drenchers were also called hog showers, hog slusher, hog waterer, and other terms. I have one reference that says hogs had to be sprayed every eight hours, more often in hot weather. Also one of the reasons most farmers load hogs at night, early morning. Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org From: CBQ@groups.io [mailto:CBQ@groups.io] On Behalf Of Kirby Lambert
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 11:02 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io
Cc: Kirby Lambert
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Montgomery Sheepyard question Doug: I knew that hogs did not sweat but did not relate it to shipping them to market, which just shows that I have never shipped hogs to market. I had never heard of the hog drencher. I suspect that there are a lot of things I have never heard of. A hog drencher is such a common sense idea that you have to wonder who eventually thought of it! On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:27 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:
Kirby, hogs do not sweat, so water is used to moderate temperature. It’s the reason hogs like to wallow in the mud. Railroads typically used hog drenchers. Attached is a photo of one in use on the CNW at Tama IA. And a CNW drawing. I don’t have a photo or drawing of a CBQ hog drencher. The train would move by the drencher at slow speed while a railroad employee would spray water into the cars, wetting the hogs and drenching the bedding, ie the sand. The nozzles were on swivel joints so they could be moved up and down to fully drench the car sides. Note there is two nozzles to do both decks. The UP had triple nozzle drenchers for their triple deck HOGZ cars. Hog drenchers were located along mainline tracks, usually near the water tank. Sometimes on both sides of the track. They would be strategically spaced along routes that handled hogs regulary. Another tactic in extremely hot weather was to hang burlap bags containing a block of ice inside the stockcars that contained hogs. I suspect a problem with the half barrel of water was train movement tended to splash the water out of the barrel unless it was sealed. Not to mention someone would have to crawl into the car to access the barrel of water. Which may have led to the design of the track side hog drencher. From: CBQ@groups.io [mailto:CBQ@groups.io] On Behalf Of Kirby Lambert
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 7:05 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io
Cc: Kirby Lambert
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Montgomery Sheepyard question I read in a memoir from the 20's about a shipper putting a half barrel of water on each level of a double deck hog car and throwing water over the hogs at each stop to preserve the animals health on the way to market in the warm months. It also talked about slowly loading and unloading the hogs like they were portly commuters that should not be rushed. On Mar 12, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Douglas Harding wrote: From: CBQ@groups.io [mailto:CBQ@groups.io] On Behalf Of Louis Zadnichek via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 3:30 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Montgomery Sheepyard question Kirby - I don't think so, but will make a search. Will advise - Louis Do you have any pictures of loading hogs? On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Louis Zadnichek via Groups.Io wrote: Pete - To whet your memory, I'm attaching two more undated images of Wyoming cattle and sheep being loaded out for market. The cattle loading image is a good one. The intrepid photographer is right down at the base of the chute in the manure behind the herders driving the cattle up the ramp into the stock car. The sheep loading image gives a different perspective than the one posted earlier. At the top of the chute in the cattle loading image there is a man in a vest and a bowler hat. He may be a live stock inspector. Note the Tom Mix style cow boy hats worn by most of the herders in both images. If you could "hear" the loading going on, there'd be the low moans of the cattle and the bleats of the sheep along with the yelling and cursing from the herders. Let's not go into the smells....... I look forward to your dissertation - Louis Louis..I feel a long dissertation coming on based on these photos...A few years ago there was a Burlington Bulletin featuring stock movements..It pretty well covered the waterfront. Just for a starter here on the Lincoln and west territory there was still a significant livestock movement starting in August each year..That' when the grass fed critters started to move from the high country and down to the Missouri River markets for fattening and slaughter. Those trains were designated..at least on the Lincoln division and west by initials...ie MWSPU...Montana--Wyoming--Stock--Pickup...So..in the manner of all railroaders they aquired a nickname were referred to as A "MONKEY WARD"...Some of you guys should be able to figure that one out. I'm not disposed right now to declaim on these matters, but it won't go away and the "mood" will strike me before too long. I've got to print those photos out so I can point out who is who and what they do as I write Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Louis Zadnichek via Groups.Io <LZadnichek=aol.com@groups.io>
To: CBQ <CBQ@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Mar 12, 2019 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Montgomery Sheepyard question Pete - I don't have anything at the moment to contribute on the Montgomery Stock Yards, but I can share a couple of Lines West images of a sheep load out and a stock train departing at the "end of the round-up." This will give the younger members of our List an idea of how the sheep (woolies to train crews) got from the stock yards to Montgomery. Whereas I can't be positive that these two undated images I'm attaching show live stock that were actually consigned to Montgomery, they nonetheless show how it was done across the Q system. The first image shows Wyoming sheep being loaded into double deck stock car No. 59075D, the "D" meaning double deck. Both decks are being loaded simultaneously by herders with "Tom Mix" style cow boy hats. Double deck stock car No. 50475 at right has already been loaded. For whatever reason, this car doesn't have the "D" next to its number. Pete, may be you can answer this, but from this image and others I've seen of stock loading it appears to me that each individual stock car was first uncoupled and hand brake set before being loaded. Then, after loading, it was shoved ahead and another empty spotted. If this is correct, was it to minimize slack action and possibly injuring the stock making for a future freight claim? The second undated image is a real classic. Here we find way car 14199 ready to depart Cody, WY, with a stock train. Of the men on the way car platform, I'll speculate that the ranch owner or manager is at center with railroad officials such as the live stock agent and station agent on either side. Note the old open platform passenger car coupled ahead of the way car for the herders accompanying the train. Like you might say, this was "the end of the round-up." I can't tell if the stock car shown is double deck or not, but if double deck then this stock train was loaded with sheep and might've been headed to Montgomery. Sheep were notorious for having ticks, even though they were dipped in insecticide baths. Although I would've been only about six or seven years old, I can still recall my Dad taking me to a live stock yard in Casper, WY, in the early 1950s when he was the trainmaster there. I came home with a couple of tuffs of sheep wool as a souvenir and my Mom had a FIT that I might've gotten bitten by a tick.... Funny, the things you remember from your childhood when you become an old man. Best Regards - Louis Good Job with the history Bill...I"m not an "animal person" but what you have written confirms and explains how the livestock "bidness" was done on the railroad " back in the day"..ie The RR as I knew and experienced it. There were so many "ancillary" services and requirements to handling livestock, poultry and "fresh meat" all of these services required lots of "outside" people and facilities, that I often..even now wonder if the railroads actually made anything close to a profit handling this stuff. Fresh meat and livestock trains required extra engines, crews and..most important...SPEED. Opposing and slower same direction trains were put aside and delayed to get that "stock train" over the road and it was "all hands on deck" when said "stock train was expected to get some kind of delay. Read some of the old "Fiction"...but most of it was based on "real life" experiences writtten by some of the old time "fiction" writers in Railroad Magazine ie Harry BEdwell, E.S Dellinger, John Johns, Those old "Tales of the Rails" were...to a high degree based on "special moves"...passenger extras...stock extras etc. Good reading for those of us who know something of the railroad back in those exciting days However todays computer driven cost analysis methods would probably have put the "kabosh" on the solicitation and handling of fresh meat, stock, and to, perhaps a greater degree "Perishable, fresh fruit and vegetable traffic. This is written 50 years post "Night Trainmaster at Blue Island Yard on the Rock Island where every night was a joyous experience in "Getting the PIGS (TOFC) out and the Perishable connections made. Woe be unto anyone" who contributed..or could be "BLAMED FOR" any interruption of this traffic. Also...I almost forgot that there was the VERY SIGNIFICANT MATTER of DELAY CLAIMS, OFF CONDITON CLAIMS and MISSED CONNECTION CLAIMS....I throw my credentials out in support of this outwardly unknown matter as being obtained by 7 years as Manager FReight Claims" for the RI. We "shoveled out" some big dollars every year for the above mentioned situations...Of course..as the guy who "Signed the checks" was blamed for the Horrendous claim Bill. As one of my predecessors once famously said..."Don't blame me"..I"m JUST THE UNDERTAKER"...I didn't kill the deceased" Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: cbqbill1x <kybillhusb@gmail.com>
To: CBQ <CBQ@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Mar 11, 2019 10:04 am
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Montgomery Sheepyard question All-thanks for all of the information regarding the Montgomery Sheepyards. I grew up in Oswego, and graduated from Oswego High School in 1958. Several of my parent's friends worked at the Montgomery Yards. Here's a little more information about the Montgomery yards:
In 1960, the Montgomery Stockyards were the largest sheep barns in the world. The Montgomery stockyards were constructed by the CB&Q in 1880. The yards became an important source of employment for people in this area. The stockyard facility included the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy's 20 track yard for loading, unloading, cleaning, and holding sheep for ultimate transfer to the Chicago Stockyards. A hotel was provided for the sheepherders and other in transit workers, Several farms located adjacent to the stockyards were owned by the Burlington Railroad, and were used for resting, grazing, and feeding in transit sheep. Sheepherders and other workers travelled with the train, and may have occupied a bunk* in the stockcar, or rode in a Drover's caboose (a "Cowboy Pullman") or similar "basic accommodation" car. [2]
The Montgomery stockyards were close to the final destination for sheep: the Chicago Stockyards, where the sheep would be slaughtered. In some cases, the shipper would want to have the sheep turned out to pasture for a few days to "fatten the sheep up" before being weighed at the Chicago stockyards. During transit, cattle and sheep lose weight because of lack of water and exercise; since the shipper was paid by weight at the Chicago stockyards, shippers would take every opportunity to feed, and water the animals before they arrived at the Chicago stockyards. The "The 28-hour law of 1873" provided that cattle, sheep, etc., must not be confined in railroad cars for a longer period than 28 consecutive hours (or upon written request of the owner 36 consecutive hours) without unloading the same in a humane manner into properly equipped pens for rest, water, and feeding for a period of at least 5 consecutive hours. Animals can also be kept confined for longer than 28 hours if unloading the animals is not possible because of "accidental or unavoidable causes." * My grandfather, Albert Frey, operated a poultry business in Earlville. At various times they shipped via the Burlington, live and dressed poultry to Chicago. Earlville is "only" 77 miles from Chicago, but in the early 1900's, when my grandfather was starting his business, there were no improved roads between Earlville and Chicago. Route 34/Ogden Avenue would have been the preferred truck route in later years. Route 34 was not completed until 1926. My uncle, who worked in the business said that it was common for a worker to travel "in the poultry car" between Earlville and Chicago. Most of the poultry probably was sold on South Water Street Market, which at the time was Chicago's largest wholesale market. The market had a rail terminal associated with it.
You can find a photo of a typical poultry car of the era at https://ia802706.us.archive.org/0/items/carbuildersdict00forngoog/carbuildersdict00forngoog.pdf (pp 166) The above reference provides a number of good photos of various freight and passenger cars of the era, including a photo of a Burlington Furniture car. north of Webster Street, on both sides of Route 31, and the yards were located between Aucutt and Jericho roads, west from Route 31 to Blackberry Creek. [2]
<CBQ59433WyomingCattleLoadingUndated.jpg><CBQWyomingSheepLoadingUndated.jpg>
<unloading hogs chicago swift.jpg><water hogs calumet city.tif><feeding hogs calumet city.tif><chicago stockyards unloading hogs.jpg><calumet City loading hogs.jpg> <CNW Hog Drencher Tama IA 2.jpg><C&NW Hog Drencher copy.jpg> _._,_._,_
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