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OK Dave et al here's the rest...or maybe at least part of the rest of the story. The rules are very specific and clear about a section overtaking another section..Wording went something like this.....When one section overtakes another they must exchange signals, train orders and some other stuff which I can't remember without looking at the book. If anyone want the exact rulebook material I can provide it. The above is true and answer's your question, but what I said in my original post was that. A first section of a TRAIN OF ANOTHER SCHEDULE could get in between a second or third section of the ORIGINAL SCHEDULE. That's why it was a good thing that everybody knew what engine all sections of EACH SCHEDULE be known by all concerned. Sometimes, however it was not always known and then there had to be some "Guess Work" involved
As to; flags...the use of white flags on extra trains was discontinued, I think..subject to correction some time in the 1950's. In the case of steam engines the flags would get dirty and as someone once said "a dirty white flag could be mistaken for a green flag. White classification lights continued to be used, but, of course, in CTC territory class lights had no meaning, but some railroads..I think the Rock Island was one, continued to use white class lights.
As to green flags I am absolutely certain that both green flags and lights were required until at least 1956 on the Q...I have a personal story relating to green flags which i have told before on this forum so I'll save it for later.
If what I've posited here needs further clarification or obfuscation I'll be glad to contribute what ever you would like to have
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: 'sartherdj@aol.com' sartherdj@aol.com [CBQ] <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 9:21 am Subject: Re: [CBQ] Re: The Use of Class Lights on GP 7's and 9's
Doug and Pete,
Thanks for the clarification on the use of flags and class lights to indicate a second section of a train. Both explanations were very clear.
Pete, No information is to much information especially when it involves a "fallen flag" like the CB&Q. In your additional information you mentioned that a "second section or following section" of a train could have overtaken the original scheduled section. In that case would the second section that had overtaken the original first section be required to display a green flag or use its green class lights? Or would the second section be required to allow the first section to overtake it as soon as possible?
Was the use both flags and locomotive class lights accepted "green signal" practice on the "Q"? Certainly a flag would be easier to see during the day but at night a locomotive class light might have been more practical.
Later, Dave Sarther
-----Original Message-----
From: Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com [CBQ] <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 6:28 am Subject: Re: [CBQ] Re: The Use of Class Lights on GP 7's and 9's
Just a brief addition to what Doug has written which, by the way, is correct...Although not required I believe it would have been the practice to adivse, either by inclusion in a train order, or by message the engine number(s) of second or following sections so that there would be no doubt as to which trains following a 1st section "carrying the green" were indeed sections of that train. Why would this be a good thing...Sometimes as was mentioned as an example during WW 2 and other times of heavy traffic a first section of another train of a schedule could get in between sections of a train running in two or more sections...
Sound complicated???? Indeed it was...especially during WW 2 time trains were often operating with brand new firemen and brakemen and newly "set up" conductors and engineers....Read some of the old stories in RAILROAD MAGAZINE and see the "bundles" of train orders a crew would have to deal with...Trains with right (not RIGHTS) over other trains or even right over just one section of a train running in multple sections.
Another note "thrown in at no extra charge" Trains carrying (green) signals for following sections were required to "Whistle signals" when they met another train..I believe the signal was Two longs and one short....The train to which the signals were directed was required to answer with the usual Two shorts...which was the basic acknowlegement of "I see your signals and understand". Also IIRC if a train to which the signals whistle was directed did not "answer" the the passing train was required to stop and straighten things out.
Well, this is more than you asked about, or even, maybe, wanted to know, but sometimes I just can't help myself.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@iowacentralrr.org [CBQ] < CBQ@yahoogroups.com> To: CBQ < CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2015 7:46 am Subject: [CBQ] Re: The Use of Class Lights on GP 7's and 9's
Dave, the colors actually mean different things.
Green meant another section was following, ie as 2
nd section of a scheduled train, running on that train’s schedule but perhaps 20 minutes later. It was not an extra as it was considered a scheduled train and treated as such. Rules permitted multiple sections, and heavy trains were often broken into sections. This was common with passenger runs, and esp during WWII. The last train running on that schedule would have no flags or class lights showing, which told everyone it was the last section. So if you were an inferior train waiting in a siding for a scheduled train ie Timetable listed, and you saw green flags on an opposing train, you knew you could not move until you saw a train moving in the same direction with no flags. And you might see three trains in succession with green f lags. But you could not move until you saw the last section of that train passed you.
White means extra, as in a train that has no schedule and is inferior to all other trains, except per direction. An extra moving in the superior direction would have rights over an extra moving in the inferior direction. If you were flying white flags you had to get out of the way of everything else on the road.
Doug Harding
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