Greetings All,
The Q had a strong influence on which locomotives were acquired by the C&S and
the FW&D.
I don't know how the economics worked out for the three parties.
Perhaps the 0-1s were sold at scrap value to the C&S. One was almost
immediately cannibalised for spares (it needed significant repairs) to keep the
others running.
Most sources seem to indicate that the C&S wanted F7s but got O-1s.
Ironic, that most of the C&S's 2-8-2s spent a great deal of time leased to the
Q in the 1930 -early 1950s.
But for those of us that like steam, it was a wonderful gesture by the Q.
But I am not sure if it was fully appreciated by the C&S operating department
and the bean counters.
It would be great to find out the full story.
regards, Mark
----- Original Message ----
From: John Manion <railbass@comcast.net>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 3 February, 2010 11:15:16 PM
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Motive Power Run Through
A good example of the corporate arrangements on the Q occurred in September
1958, when two major accidents took several F units out of service and sent
C&S F-7 700-D and FW&D F-7 750-A back to EMD for rebuilding. C&S had
leased and then bought six USRA 2-8-2s from the Q in June 1957, but more
power was needed, mostly for the sugar beet harvest in the fall season.
C&S leased several O-1a's from the Q to handle this traffic, and I remember
seeing 4978 and 4994 operating in Denver. I took pictures of 4994 stored
in Denver prior to being sent to Lubbock, TX, and being put on display as
FW&D 401. I don't know how many O-1a's were leased to C&S in the fall of
1958, but Dave Gross, a member of the Rocky Mountain Railroad Club, filmed
several of them, which is illustrated in WB Video's *The Last Steamers of
the Colorado & Southern *(1986). This was a much more complicated
arrangement than the Q merely assigning additional diesel motors to
Colorado.
- John Manion
Denver, CO
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:34 AM, Mark Sellars <sellarsmark_aus@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
> Greetings All,
> In 1944 the Q received a few FTs from the war production board particularly
> to protect oil shipments from the Gulf into the Pacific NW naval bases.
> These FTs also ran between Chicago and Denver.
> Seems that the most of Q's Road Foremen of Engines were trained to run
> these locomotives and then train the enginemen in turn, There is in "Going
> Railroading' a description of Sam Spea's first encounter with the FT on the
> C&S's 'north end' - Denver - Cheyenne. Mickey Hansen was Spea's master for
> that lesson.
> The Q had been running E units and Zephyrs for and so had shops about to
> handle and 'hick ups' that may have occurred.
>
> Presumably the lessons learned from running the F units over the Q, the C&S
> and the FW&D paved the way for the pool that Hol Wagner referred to in his
> "Colorado Road'.
>
> The C&S and its subsidiary, the FW&D, did not gain permission from Chicago
> to acquire any freight diesels till the mid 49/50 and then each got several
> F7s which were added to the pool. By this time of course the Q had more Ft,s
> F2s, F3s and F7s (I think) for both passenger and freight service.
> I think the pool was disbanded in the mid 1950s. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
>
> I would love to know how the bean counters handled the costing of each
> company's contribution to the pool.
> The point being that the C&S was not a wholly owned subsidiary of the Q,
> nor was the FW&D a wholly owned subsidiary of the C&S in 1950. (And in fact
> not until the merger)
>
> As they were not wholly owned subsidiaries, the Directors and officers had
> to observe the niceties and run each company for the benefit of ALL
> stockholders (ie they could not 'oppress the minority shareholders' in any
> way).
>
> Of course all three companies often leased locomotives from each other,
> sometimes for decades at a time.
> But these were not pooled power. At least to my limited knowledge.
>
> Regards
> Mark Sellars
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cvlk" <cvlk@comcast. net>
> To: <CBQ@yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 02 February, 2010 15:49
> Subject: Re: [CBQ] Motive Power Run Through
>
> > Russ-
> > Please excuse some of the Model Railroad / Railfan terminology we thow
> around....
> >
> > "Run-through" - Power for a jointly operated train that stays on the
> train when it goes off home rails rather than being swapped for the new
> road's power.
> > An example would be some of the EL power sets that showed up on the
> CB&Q....or the UP power on the CD (???).
> >
> > "Pool power" - Same as above but not necessarily in pure sets.. sometimes
> combined with other road power.... and may be "stolen" to work on foreign
> road
> > to work off hours.
> >
> > The notion of "pool power" for the CB&Q/FW&D/C& S is a little bogus since
> it was a owner / subsidiary roads relationship to begin with. The article on
> use of CB&Q F units on the C&S and FW&D didn't relate to "run through" or
> "pooling" but IIRC the optimal assignment of power on a use cycle that was
> Chicago-Denver- Ft.Worth and return. I don't recall if it was in a trade
> publication or one of our magazines... .. or maybe a Burlington Bulletin
> (the CB&Q one). From your examples the C&S and FW&D units were in the
> assignment power pool. ("Pool" being a group of locos available at a
> terminal for assignment.. ..not between roads).
> >
> > Charlie Vlk
> >
> >
> > Really have no idea what you are talking about the CB&Q/C&S/FWD
> > on "pool power". Did not exist. In almost all places a route
> > like that could not be sent that way. Rates were not set up that
> > way.
> >
> > "Run-through" ? I have no idea what that means.
> >
> > On the other hand the CB&Q used, on the system, gray backs on
> > both the CB&Q and the FWD. This was from the late 40's until
> > the mid 50's.
> >
> > For example:
> > 01-15-52, West Eola IL, #68 with 751A
> > 01-15-52, West Eola IL, #75 with 702D
> > 01-15-52, West Eola IL, #62 with 702A
> > 10-30-51, West Eola IL, #68 with 750
> > 10-30-51, West Eola IL, #75 with 751
> > 10-30-51, West Eola IL, #CD with 702
> > 10-30-51, West Eola IL, #74 with 751
> >
> > Right from the start gray backs were very seldom used on four
> > units in the same number series, just chance. Normally they
> > were set as two units, as "A-B" and "D-C". Many operators did
> > not use the letters, just the numbers on gray backs. I know that
> > was rather strange as they would always use letters on passenger
> > units, just not on freight.
> >
> > Russ
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "cvlk" <cvlk@comcast. net>
> > To: <CBQ@yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 02 February, 2010 13:08
> > Subject: Re: [CBQ] Motive Power Run Through
> >
> > >I believe the answer is yes.
> > >
> > > Seems to me I remember seeing an article about the use of Q F units
> being used down to Ft. Worth on a regular rotation.
> > > FW&D and C&S power did get to the Q but I don't think it was on a
> run-through basis but more of seasonal power balancing or trading (i.e., C&S
> 4-6-0s and Q 01a s)
> > > After the sixties it wasn't unknown to see C&S and FW&D power in
> Chicago but this may have been to bring them in for class repairs.
> > > Charlie Vlk
> > >
> > > I was wondering if the Q, C&S and the FW&D ever "pooled" power as in
> run throughs in and out of Denver? I don't think I have ever seen any
> pictures of it.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> > >
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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