Russ -
Thank you very much for the link. I will bookmark it for future
reference. Having now read the ICC report, I'm still confused as to
where you find fault in the action or inaction of the other crew
members on either train. The front brakeman on Extra 700D (NOT Train
77 as I mistakenly wrote) apparently was a novice unfamiliar with the
sidings and therefore shouldn't be blamed excessively for deferring to
engineer Tingle, but by all accounts the flagman, fireman and
conductor on that train warned him repeatedly and urgently about the
need to clear the main. The conductor was so alarmed that he
threatened to apply brakes himself and would have if Tingle hadn't
done so at the last moment. It sounds as though all of them were
discharging their duties diligently, unless you are saying they failed
to physically overpower Tingle and take the controls away from him. I
have heard of such things happening, but when you're dealing with a
36-year veteran, you assume he has some sense of what he's doing. In
any case, it doesn't sound as though any of those crew members were
"asleep." Regarding the crew of Train 30, would they have been in
radio contact with the freight? If so, perhaps they do bear some
responsibility - though it isn't clear what they could have done under
the circumstances. And if they weren't in radio contact, then it's
hard to know where they erred. By Speas' account, at least, they
couldn't see the freight until it was almost on top of them.
>From the various first-hand accounts summarized in the ICC report, it
sounds as though engineer Tingle deliberately ignored orders to take
the siding at Semper with the intention of pulling onto the next
siding at Broomfield instead. He may have been pushing a little too
hard to cover those 5 miles in order to arrive before the passenger
train, and although he applied his brakes, he couldn't stop before
overshooting the south siding-switch at Broomfield, which proved fatal.
OK, Pete. All that said, I'm very interested in hearing about the
"intimidation factor" or any other ideas you have on this case.
Jonathan
--- In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Strodtz" <borneo@...> wrote:
>
> Archie,
>
> I was at the ICC investigation at Maiden Rock WI. Head on collision
> at 59 mph with no brakes at all and only flat railroad. There was no
> "adamant voicing", there was just no idea what happened. You got
> two on the head end and two on the rear end but nowhere has any
> idea why. None of the crews even got fired over about one years
> each.
>
> It's a strange world.
>
> Russ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Archie" <kliner@...>
> To: <CBQ@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 03 February, 2009 22:50
> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [CBQ] Re: 1958 Wreck
>
>
> Jonathan and Pete are both correct to blame the engineer according
to the
> evidence gathered by the ICC investigation. I have seen men who
were never
> wrong and when questioned concerning it, were so adamant in voicing
they
> were correct they would cause you to question your own convictions. It
> appears that in this case, the engineer was wrong and this time
didn't get
> away with it. Archie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jpslhedgpeth@...
> To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:56 PM
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [CBQ] Re: 1958 Wreck
>
>
>
> Have you guys gone to the ICC website and read the details???? If
you
> haven't you need to do so...
>
> Something which I refer to as the "intimidation factor" was involved
> here...If you want me to I'll explain it, but I want anyone who is
going to
> participate in the discussion to read the official report and then
we'll
> talk
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
> To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 9:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [CBQ] Re: 1958 Wreck
>
> That make no sense. You blame the Engineer. Why?
> Are you telling me that 5 miles from Semper the
> other crews were not reading? Why not? The are as
> just as responsible as the entire members of the
> crew. Where was the Fireman? Sleeping?????
> Conductor? Flagman?
>
> And, by the way, there have been other wrecks of
> similar issues at almost the same location on the
> C&S.
>
> You can do better.
>
> Russ (Only 42 years of experience)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bigbearoak" <jonathanharris@...>
> To: <CBQ@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 03 February, 2009 19:27
> Subject: [CBQ] Re: 1958 Wreck
>
> Those have to be some of the most horrifying pictures of a modern
> train wreck I've seen. They're much worse than the ones in Grenard's
> "Colorado and Southern, a Personal Memory of the Standard Gauge" or
> Speas & Coel's "Goin' Railroading," both of which include photos the
> same wreck but where 700D has either fallen off the E7 or has been
> pulled off. "Goin' Railroading" - a wonderful and extensive oral
> h
> istory by senior C&S engineer Sam Speas - has a good account of the
> accident, which killed three veteran engine men (heart wrenching too,
> since all 3 were longtime colleagues and close personal friends of
> Speas) as well as injuring 20 passengers. The two engineers involved
> had 36 years experience apiece. Fault apparently lay with Fred Tingle,
> engineer of the northbound freight (Train No. 77), who failed to
> follow orders to take the siding at Semper, 5 miles south of
> Broomfield, in order to wait for southbound Train No. 30, the
> passenger run from Cheyenne; roaring past Semper, No. 77 then overshot
> the Broomfield siding as well. The passenger train was just pulling
> out of Broomfield station when the freight rounded the curve just to
> the south. By the time the crew of 30 saw it bearing down, they had no
> time to do more than set their brakes before the F7 slammed into them,
> killing both engineer Frank Johnson and fireman Joe Loughry. The
> fireman on Train 77, Harry Anderson, saw the passenger train looming
> up ahead just in time to get back into the engine room, but engineer
> Tingle apparently chose to run the 700D to his death.
>
> For those more interested in machinery than people, the wreck is
> historically significant in contributing to the C&S's motive power
> shortage of 1958, which kept some of their last steam engines in
> service a few months longer than planned. For me, no amount of extra
> railfan photos can balance that carnage.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --- In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, Jpslhedgpeth@ wrote:
> >
> > Colorado
> and Southern...Broomfield, CO....9/22/58
> >
> > Go to the ICC website for particulars
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Keil <rkeil6721@>
> > To: cbq@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 4:54 pm
> > Subject: [CBQ] 1958 Wreck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > irst, my apologies, this should have gone to this group, not the
> BRHS list.
> > he photos are in the CBQ Yahoo group photos section.
> >
> > ll, Just uploaded two photos from a wreck in 1958 in Colorado. It
> involved some
> > units (C&S I believe) and a passenger train, E units. I got these
> from a
> > riend who got them from his uncle, no other details provided other
> than he
> > appened to be close when it occurred. Rick KeilWichita, KS
> > __________________________________________________________
> > indows Liveâ"¢ Hotmail�®â?¦more than just e-mail.
> >
>
ttp://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > -----------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > Individual Email | Traditional
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CBQ/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CBQ/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:CBQ-digest@yahoogroups.com
mailto:CBQ-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
CBQ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|