Greetings,
I agree with what you say.
Just because Jay Gould was dead, there were still his camp followers to deal
with.
But, as you say, they did not have the "master's touch".
It took lot more than just the D&RGs profits to build and operate the WP in
those early years.
George Gould was but a pale shadow (who knows how history woul;d have panned
out if he had his father's abilities).
Regards, Mark
----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen J. Levine <sjl@prodigy.net>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:03:22 PM
Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
Actually, I believe that, at the time the D&RG granted trackage rights to the
MP, they were both owned by the same person, George Gould, son of Jay Gould.
The profits from the D&RG were used to build the Western Pacific Railroad,
resulting in the road remaining in a precarious financial situation and
ultimately ending in bankruptcy. The property did not get out from under the
Gould umbrella until the 1940's.
sjl
Mark Sellars <sellarsmark_ aus@yahoo. com> wrote:
Greetings All,
The D&RG laid down a third rail on their line from Denver to Pueblo in 1881;
this allowed the standard gouge trains to operate Denver - Pueblo.
The AT&SF laid its own line Pueblo to Denver which became operational in
October 1887.
The MoPac reached Pueblo from Kansas in December 1887.
The CRI&P reached Colorado Springs in September/ October 1888.
I suspect that the D&RG partly granted trackage rights to the Mopac and the
Rock Island as a knee jerk reaction to the renewed interest in Denver by the
AT&SF.
It also badly needed the standard gouge business.
Regards, Mark
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Webber <rgz17@comcast. net>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:35:01 AM
Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
The D&RGW / D&RG also ran the MP, CRI&P and AT&SF trains. Before the
Santa Fe built their line north from Colorado Springs, the D&RG
handled their trains - the locomotives used (and for freight, the
cabooses), were the first standard gauged equipment on the
railroad. Of course, that also meant that the D&RG line was 3 rails.
At 06:28 PM 6/24/2008, you wrote:
>Greetings Russ,
>
>I have copies of the Joint Operating Agreements of 1900, 1915 and
>1940. Plus the maps.
>
>Certainly the D&RG(W) always (beware of Murphy's Law) ran their own trains.
>
>And I believe that the C&S and the AT&SF did too, for a while, then
>the AT&SF crews took over (I am not looking at the post merger period here).
>(I am not sure about what happened when the CRI&P and Colorado
>Midland used their landlord's tracks.)
>
>You are right; the the C&S handled all Denver area engine servicing,
>yards (including the AT&SF yards whilst they existed), and locals
>north of South Denver for the AT&SF and the C&S.
>
>And that the AT&SF handled similar business in Colorado Springs and Pueblo.
>
>Lloyd Stagner confirmed that the respective railroads crewed their
>own way cars until the 1940s.
>But what happened after that I don't know.
>
>Russ, many thanks for your input.
>
>Regards, Mark
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Russ Strodtz <borneo@19main. com>
>To: CBQ@yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:02:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
>
>
>Mark,
>
>Might be confused many time here. AT&SF, C&S, and D&RGW all had
>their own Denver to Pueblo. Except for a small North and small South
>C&S everything was scrapped. Look at the maps.
>
>C&S got all yard areas at the Denver Terminal. AT&SF got the
>Colorado Springs and Pueblo yard. This was all agreed.
>
>As information current as BNSF runs Denver-LaJunta- Amarillo. Only
>crews and all run East. Runs Amarillo-Trinidad- Denver. This crews
>handle everything West. There is a small local that runs Pueblo
>to LaJunta. Locals can also run BNSF to get from West, Amarillo
>via Dalhart-Stratford- back to Amarillo on UP trackage. That keeps
>everything going still West and then East.
>
>Part of change was Eastbound at Las Animas is on strait line to
>Boise City and Amarillo. Las Animas to Dodge City is now turning
>to go to the South and East. Everything is still at Las Animas, it
>just has the turns different directions. There are a few odd runs
>that have to go to Pueblo-West. Did try it to Trinidad but it was
>not been very good. With Trinidad to Raton sold I don't think they
>can run that way.
>
>Russ
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mark Sellars
>To: CBQ@yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tuesday, 24 June, 2008 03:32
>Subject: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
>
>Greetings All,
>
>Pardon me if I have asked this question before.
>
>The Joint Line ran between South Denver and Pueblo, Colorado.
>In 1899, with subsequent renewals in 1900, 1915 etc, the Colorado &
>Southern and the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe signed a Joint
>Operating Agreement which amongst other thing allowed the C&S to use
>AT&SF [and later, after October 1918, D&RG(W)] trackage between
>South Denver and Pueblo.
>
>Initially C&S trains were crewed by C&S engine men (probably) and
>C&S way cars were crewed by C&S men.
>Sometime in the 1950s(??) the C&S men lost their crewing rights to AT&SF men.
>Can anyone shed light on what happened to cause this and why?
>
>As a matter of interest, AT&SF C&S way cars were assigned to trains
>according to their place on the roster. That is way cars form one
>company frequently brought up the rear of the other's trains; for
>good measure occasionally way cars from each company were assigned.
>
>Regards, Mark Sellars
>Adelaide, South Australia.
>
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Bob Webber
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