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Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.

To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
From: "Stephen J. Levine" <sjl@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
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Actually, I believe that, at the time the D&RG granted trackage rights to the 
MP, they were both owned by the same person, George Gould, son of Jay Gould.
   
  The profits from the D&RG were used to build the Western Pacific Railroad, 
resulting in the road remaining in a precarious financial situation and 
ultimately ending in bankruptcy.  The property did not get out from under the 
Gould umbrella until the 1940's.
   
  sjl

Mark Sellars <sellarsmark_aus@yahoo.com> wrote:
          Greetings All,
 
The D&RG laid down a third rail on their line from Denver to Pueblo in 1881; 
this allowed the standard gouge trains to operate Denver - Pueblo.
 
The AT&SF laid its own line Pueblo to Denver which became operational in 
October 1887.
The MoPac reached Pueblo from Kansas in December 1887.
The CRI&P reached Colorado Springs in September/ October 1888.
 
I suspect that the D&RG partly granted trackage rights to the Mopac and the 
Rock Island as a knee jerk reaction to the renewed interest in Denver by the 
AT&SF.
It also badly needed the standard gouge business.
 
Regards, Mark

----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Webber <rgz17@comcast.net>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:35:01 AM
Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.

The D&RGW / D&RG also ran the MP, CRI&P and AT&SF trains. Before the 
Santa Fe built their line north from Colorado Springs, the D&RG 
handled their trains - the locomotives used (and for freight, the 
cabooses), were the first standard gauged equipment on the 
railroad. Of course, that also meant that the D&RG line was 3 rails.

At 06:28 PM 6/24/2008, you wrote:
>Greetings Russ,
>
>I have copies of the Joint Operating Agreements of 1900, 1915 and 
>1940. Plus the maps.
>
>Certainly the D&RG(W) always (beware of Murphy's Law) ran their own trains.
>
>And I believe that the C&S and the AT&SF did too, for a while, then 
>the AT&SF crews took over (I am not looking at the post merger period here).
>(I am not sure about what happened when the CRI&P and Colorado 
>Midland used their landlord's tracks.)
>
>You are right; the the C&S handled all Denver area engine servicing, 
>yards (including the AT&SF yards whilst they existed), and locals 
>north of South Denver for the AT&SF and the C&S.
>
>And that the AT&SF handled similar business in Colorado Springs and Pueblo.
>
>Lloyd Stagner confirmed that the respective railroads crewed their 
>own way cars until the 1940s.
>But what happened after that I don't know.
>
>Russ, many thanks for your input.
>
>Regards, Mark
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Russ Strodtz <borneo@19main. com>
>To: CBQ@yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:02:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
>
>
>Mark,
>
>Might be confused many time here. AT&SF, C&S, and D&RGW all had
>their own Denver to Pueblo. Except for a small North and small South
>C&S everything was scrapped. Look at the maps.
>
>C&S got all yard areas at the Denver Terminal. AT&SF got the
>Colorado Springs and Pueblo yard. This was all agreed.
>
>As information current as BNSF runs Denver-LaJunta- Amarillo. Only
>crews and all run East. Runs Amarillo-Trinidad- Denver. This crews
>handle everything West. There is a small local that runs Pueblo
>to LaJunta. Locals can also run BNSF to get from West, Amarillo
>via Dalhart-Stratford- back to Amarillo on UP trackage. That keeps
>everything going still West and then East.
>
>Part of change was Eastbound at Las Animas is on strait line to
>Boise City and Amarillo. Las Animas to Dodge City is now turning
>to go to the South and East. Everything is still at Las Animas, it
>just has the turns different directions. There are a few odd runs
>that have to go to Pueblo-West. Did try it to Trinidad but it was
>not been very good. With Trinidad to Raton sold I don't think they
>can run that way.
>
>Russ
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mark Sellars
>To: CBQ@yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tuesday, 24 June, 2008 03:32
>Subject: [CBQ] C&S Crewing rights over the Joint Line.
>
>Greetings All,
>
>Pardon me if I have asked this question before.
>
>The Joint Line ran between South Denver and Pueblo, Colorado.
>In 1899, with subsequent renewals in 1900, 1915 etc, the Colorado & 
>Southern and the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe signed a Joint 
>Operating Agreement which amongst other thing allowed the C&S to use 
>AT&SF [and later, after October 1918, D&RG(W)] trackage between 
>South Denver and Pueblo.
>
>Initially C&S trains were crewed by C&S engine men (probably) and 
>C&S way cars were crewed by C&S men.
>Sometime in the 1950s(??) the C&S men lost their crewing rights to AT&SF men.
>Can anyone shed light on what happened to cause this and why?
>
>As a matter of interest, AT&SF C&S way cars were assigned to trains 
>according to their place on the roster. That is way cars form one 
>company frequently brought up the rear of the other's trains; for 
>good measure occasionally way cars from each company were assigned.
>
>Regards, Mark Sellars
>Adelaide, South Australia.
>
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>
Bob Webber 

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