RE: [CBQ] Isabella,Pullman dinner 4438. ?

["'Charlie Vlk' cvlk@comcast.net [CBQ]" <CBQ@yahoogroups.com>]

I would certainly agree with Hol’s research…..the 1897 Pullman-built cars have more rectangular upper sash in the windows and the ceiling trim in the clerestory does not match the restored interior.

I have an A.W. Johnson shot of one end of the 4427 taken at Eola on 8-2-30 and the car is in good paint and may be in service although there is no evidence of it being occupied.

Charlie Vlk

 

 

From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CBQ@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 9:55 AM
To: CB&Q Group
Subject: RE: [CBQ] Isabella,Pullman dinner 4438. ? [1 Attachment]

 

 

Group:
 
Looking at the Bullmose Bar website, particularly the interior photo of the car as it exists now, has, I think, given me the answer to what car this really is, and it should have been obvious from the start.  First, off, the ceiling of the car's clerestory, with its curve down past the clerestory windows to the base of the clerestory, is a distinctive design feature devised by Pullman and employed by Pullman and other builders for a few years after 1900.  It was not used as early as 1893.  Second, the wide arched transom windows -- with the window either full width or split into two panes -- did not come into use until 1899.  And finally, the owners refer to the car not only as the 'Isabella,' which it clearly is not, but also as the 4438.  And the 4438 was a wooden 70-foot chair car with just these features, built for the Q by American Car & Foundry in January 1904 and scrapped at Eola on November 2, 1933.  The owners claim the carbody was purchased for $75 in California in 1931, and that amount would have been a reasonable price for a passenger carbody during the Depression.  And getting a carbody from Eola to Sandwich is a much more reasonable -- and less costly -- proposition than hauling it to Sandwich from California.
 
Compare the car at Sandwich with the attached builder's photo of CB&Q chair car 1701, built by AC&F in July 1903 and renumbered 4400 in 1904.  Cars 4400-4439 were identical, so this is what the Sandwich car looked like when new.
 
The bar owners' 'Isabella' and Teddy Roosevelt stories are pure fabrication!  Roosevelt, incidentally, used a number of Pullman rental private cars for his travels while he was President, his favorite being 'Rocket,' a car built by Wagner and acquired by Pullman in 1899 with its acquisition of the last remaining competitor to Pullman.  I have a number of photos of Roosevelt on or around the 'Rocket' on his Colorado visit in April 1905.
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but there's no doubt in my mind what this car is!  But I certainly wouldn't rain on the owners' parade with this information.
 
Hol
 

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To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 20:14:36 -0600
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Isabella,Pullman dinner 4438. ?

 

Charlie,

 

Thanks.

 

If you're interested go to bullmoosebar.com  then to history for the owners,spin on the heritage of the car and it's tie to Teddy Roosevelt. Some of their dates match Hol's comments. Regardless of their accuracy,  it's still a pretty neat place for a Q fan to grab a meal.

 

Leo

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 1, 2014, at 12:39 PM, "'Charlie Vlk' cvlk@comcast.net [CBQ]" <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Leo-

 

I recall some reference to “The Pride of the Burlington” moniker being applied to the Zephyr Diner carbody in Sandwich, IL when I stopped there in the late 60’s.  It seems to me that they had a picture of the car on display and it was a coach. 

I do not believe the car has anything to do with the “Isabella”; more likely the car was a coach from the Burlington Limited c. 1897.   Durbin’s article in More Classic Trains  The Finest Trains on Earth first appeared in Trains Magazine does not have a complete list of cars for the two consists but lists the following cars that could be candidates for the diner:

 

Buffet-Library-Smoking-Baggage Cars Minneapolis and St. Paul

Day Coaches Winona and Savanna

Chair Cars Alma and Maiden Rock CB&Q #369

16 Section Sleepers Parthenon and Pantheon

Compartment Cars Angelo and Apollo 

Observation cars were Wisconsin CB&Q 304 and likely Minnesota CB&Q 302

 

Bill Glick’s Passenger Car Roster may have more info; right at the moment I can’t lay hands on my copy.  

 

Charlie Vlk

 

 

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Posted by: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@comcast.net>

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