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Another way to get around it was if the operator was called out and not train order signal was to use a flag or fusee. At Aurora Tower we would just tell the train on the radio to pick up orders or in the case one time with an eastbound freight that was to pick up cars at Nabisco for Congress Park and they had UP power I just held the last signal leaving Aurora for them to come down to the tower(Platforms) and when he could see me with the order hoop he came down and got the, in this case a message, and then I ran up and pulled the last signal for him.
Steve in SC From: "Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com" <Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com> To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 27, 2012 10:40:48 PM Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Train orders
Thanks John...I forgot about the "when operator on duty"....Of course that caveat was probably only used when there was less than continuous train order service.
I was at Herrin Jct once in late December 55 or early Jan 1956. Jim Christen, Jim Ozment and I rode the motor train down from Shattuck to Herrin Jct. and return. I have photos of the mail messenger loading his truck from the motor car at HJ.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: John D. Mitchell, Jr. <cbqrr47@yahoo.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Train orders One of the odd places for "no train order signal" was Herrin Junction. It had been the end of a subdivision at one time but when the subdivision was extended, no train order signal was ever installed. The timetable footnotes said, "No train order signal at Herrin Junction. Conductor and Engineer must have Clearance form A, when operator is on duty". There was a day operator only.
From: "Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com" <Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Train orders John
I was not familiar with the NS designation, but it certainly is correct....At those stations the timetable would have a statement "like unto this"....No train order signal at St. Joseph Union Station. Conductor and Engineer must have Clearance Form A.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: John D. Mitchell, Jr. <cbqrr47@yahoo.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Train orders Pete
And man could they do it FAST! If the station was one without a train order signal such as the end of a subdivision, they said NS (no signal) before taking the orders.
From: "Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com" <Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Train orders Thanks for mentioning that John...Just to add a bit more...The carbon paper used was double faced therefore the ink was transferred to both the front and back of all of the "intermediate copies of the order, thus providing a bit of protection wherein if one side of the order got wet and the ink ran, hopefully the other side was still legible.
You mentioned that the orders in that form were written with a STYLUS...I wonder if the younger generation knows what a stylus is...If not FYI of the computer age guys a stylus was a writing device resembling a "desk pen" with a long pointed handle, but the point or writing end was a piece of stone which when pressed against the top tissue of the "manifold" set up by the operator would force the paper down against the top of the double faced carbon between the top two copies and of course the downward pressure would carry all the way through thus making the requisite number of copies for delivery and for the agent's file. Most of those old operators carried their own personal stylus as well as their telegraph "BUG"
I remember as a very young boy sitting on the telegraph table at Langdon MO and trying to figure out how that stylus could write when it didn't have any ink in it...It took me a while, but I finally figured it out.
Just as a little "add on"..when the DS had an order to be delivered to a particular train at a particular station or stations he would ring the applicable stations via the selective "ringer"...which is another interesting device enabling the DS to ring any number of staions, but not all on the "party line"..Unlike the old country party line only the selected station phones would ring.
When the DS phone rang the operation would answer with his station name...ie Langdon...DS would say..."19 north copy 3" This told the operator to grab his presetup manifold as John metioned complete with tin backing sheet. The OP would then say..."SD north" (SD stands for "stop displayed) by the train order signal for northward trains) The order could not be transmitted until all stations receiving the order had their train order signals set at stop.
The DS would then launch into his "train order voice"..spelling all station names and train and engine numbers.
It was fascinating to listen to those old telegraph operators repeat the order back to the DS after it had been transmitted. It was lilke a foreign language.
Pete
" -----Original Message-----
From: John D. Mitchell, Jr. <cbqrr47@yahoo.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Another reason that "flimsy" was used was that, it made it easier to make several carbon copys. I still have a train order "tin" that operators used to make train orders in the days before they were typed. It is piece of sheet metal the size of a train order. The operator clipped the train order forms to it with carbon papers. There would be a sheet of carbon paper on top and operator used a stylus to write out the order. Many operators were still using them in the fifties.
From: "Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com" <Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives The original purpose of the " flimsy" was to enable the order to be read by the light of a lantern (oil burning) or lamp in a dark jouncing cab of a steam locomtive. or waycar The order could be held up in front of the light of the lantern, cab light or even the firebox. The thin tissue allowed the writing to come through and the writing to be read under those primitive conditions which you young railroaders and fans know nothing whatever of today. The practice of using the thin tissue paper continued, as did many of the old practices well into the modern era, just because.."that's the way it's always been done".
In later years the orders,,,,expecially "slow orders" were done via fax and copying machine on regular paper.
John and Leo may want to chime in on this, but wanted to get the thread started.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: dhartman <dhartman@mchsi.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:35 am Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Speaking of old paper and operating crews, does anyone know why orders were on that flimsy tissue-like paper? They were difficult to sort through when you had a stack. Much better, I thought, when they switched to regular, heavier stock paper.
Doug Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: STEVEN HOLDING <sholding@sbcglobal.net>
Sender: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 06:23:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: <CBQ@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Newberry Archives
Operating paperwork is hard to come by as it was thrown away by train crews or round house workers in cleaning out locos and waycars. The file copies would have been in the depots and towers. I know one of my chiefs said often to help start the fire in the depot heating unit was done with the old paperwork. Train sheets were hung up by month after coming back to the DS office in a store room. I got into the one in Cicero and got a few sheets but the MASS of material was too great to save everything. Along with the sheets would have been books of daily and slow orders, lineups, and track and time. In the BC era(before computer) if you had a new ball point pen it might last 4 days there was that much writing.
A lot of the engineering drawings in Galesburg were redone one summer by an intern and the old Q drawings thrown in the garbage. Again you had to be in the right place at the right time. Station maps in wall paper sizes. The society has reprinted a lot of sheets from my collection. Other stuff from my collection is used in my articles and has been used by others. Sharing material is one of the great aspects of this hobby I tried to add some train orders to the file section but the files are in Doc and so you can not add to the file and save it, You have to start a new file. Speaking of train orders would a train order clinic work for one of our meets?? Retired train dispatcher from train orders thru track warrents and been a picker all my life Steve in SC
From: Charlie Vlk <cvlk@comcast.net>
To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, June 26, 2012 11:32:20 PM Subject: RE: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Nelson-
The Newberry Archives has almost nothing in the way of engineering drawings and operating paperwork, at least in the original collection and the later PR department files. Perhaps the Perkins papers will uncover more such documents….
Charlie Vlk
From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CBQ@yahoogroups.com?] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:05 PM To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Subject: [CBQ] Newberry Archives Dave,
Thanks for the heads up on the blog. Please ask them to put some engineering drawings on the blog, not just correspondence. Personally, I’d like to see freight car drawings and railroad structure drawings besides depots e.g. tool houses, sand towers, coal pockets, ash pits, etc. Photos of these would also be very useful to modelers. Also, operating paperwork like employee timetables, clearance cards, Form 19 and Form 31 examples, dispatcher train sheets, rule books, etc.
Nelson Moyer
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