The differences of opinons between the various railroads caused lots of minor
problems with verious mergers. Without going back into my files, I can't tell
you which was which for sure, but when Penn Central lurched into being it was
discovered that one of the main components (I think NYC) had armrests on the
cab seats and the other (PRR) did not. Until the differences were resolved,
NYC crews would refuse to run trains unless the lead locomotive had armrests.
I've heard similar stories over the years about dynamic brakes or long hood
forward units.
--- In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, William Barber <clipperw@...> wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> I not sure what prompted your post. It appears that the actual content was
> written by someone else. However, as a retired EMD/GM employee with 36 years
> in Sales and Service, I think I am qualified to respond.
>
> Actually, as far as locomotives and automobiles are concerned, Mr. Gash has
> it backwards. Modern automobiles are sold as packages. Today, there are very
> few individual options available for an automobile compared to years ago. Of
> course, years ago, there simply weren't many options. Radios were optional,
> at one time, windshield wipers were option, air conditioning was an option
> and so on. Thanks to imported autos and particularly those from Japan, cars
> began to be sold as packages. It was difficult if not impossible to produce a
> vehicle in a foreign country to an individual customer's specification. So,
> they developed package levels that include what they think most buyers want.
> It took awhile, but eventually US manufacturers followed the same process.
> For example, the 2012 Buick Enclave comes in four option levels and two drive
> lines. There is a base model, a convenience model, a leaner seat model and a
> premium model. In addition, each is available with either two wheel drive or
> all wheel drive. There are other options available; a trailering package or
> upgraded sound system, but for the most part, most people buy whatever is on
> the dealer's lot with the extra options that the dealer or manufacturer
> specified whether you want all of them or not. Of course, each higher model
> level is more expensive. In most cases, each level includes everything in the
> next lower level plus additional items. One can order a US manufactured
> automobile with the specific options desired. However, such an order will
> take 6 - 8 weeks to be delivered. My son just did such a transaction and he
> is now waiting for delivery.
>
> Locomotives are not done that way. Prior to 1980, EMD had around 30 major
> customers. Each one had their own options that they wanted. So of those
> changed over time. Today, with only 7 major customers in North America, each
> customer has a "package" subject to change with each new order depending on
> what technology changes are taking place. As new locomotive models were
> developed, a basic model was created and priced. The basic model included
> everything to make the locomotive run plus possibly a few common options that
> had evolved into basic components. The basic locomotive had a basic drawing
> list, routing for manufacture of every component, process specifications,
> etc. From the basic model, each customer then specified the specific options
> that they wanted to add to the locomotive. In some cases, that included
> deleting a basic part or system to replace it with another. For instance, the
> basic model would have included an air brake system from one manufacturer,
> but the customer wanted a different one. In that case, paperwork and
> instructions have to be created to remove every component from the basic
> manufacturer and replace it similar components from the other manufacturer.
> Years ago, dynamic brakes were not basic. These were an option which affected
> a both components and circuitry. In addition, both standard and extended
> range were available, each a completely different package. Customers
> individually specified everything from cab seats to toilets, to water coolers
> to headlights to even things like couplers. Most customers who ordered
> regularly, had specific options that they usually ordered, so EMD generally
> knew what to expect, but what BN ordered was quite different from what SP
> ordered. Each change usually required removal of some components and
> replacement with another. All of the changes were handled with a document
> called an EDL or Exception to the Drawing List. These changes were all made
> before the locomotives are actually built. Once production started, changes
> were seldom made and were costly both to the manufacturer and the customer.
> Generally, changes were not made during the production run unless there was a
> safety issue or a component failure mode.
>
> Locomotive manufacturers definitely do not have "packages" unless you
> consider something like dynamic brakes as a package. There are no bundled
> packages including several options with a take it or leave it price. Some
> locomotives, particularly passenger, have much higher prices than than
> freight units. However, they include considerably more equipment than a
> freight locomotive; head end power for instances. Every passenger locomotive
> has to have signal equipment for every railroad that it will operate on. This
> is particularly true fro Amtrak locomotives that can operate nationwide over
> all of the major RRs.
>
> I don't know what Mr. Gash based his conclusions on and I no little or
> nothing about military equipment, but his impression of the locomotive order
> process is totally incorrect. The only comment that I can make about
> government orders is that they often require far more testing of both the
> final product as well as individual components. Such extra testing is
> expensive. "Free" fuel is also expensive. I don't know exactly what RRs are
> paying for fuel now, but I think it is around $2.50 per gallon. At that
> price, a locomotive with a 4000 gallon tank would cost $10,000 to fill. On a
> 100 unit order, that would be one million dollars! Neither GE or EMD are
> going to give such money away. EMD has delivered locomotives with a full
> charge of fuel, but the customer paid for that. It is difficult to do,
> because neither builder maintains fuel facilities to handle that much fuel.
> At La Grange, they had to have a regular flow of tank trucks coming on the
> property to deliver fuel as needed based on the production schedule.
>
> Bill Barber
> Gravois Mills, MO
>
> On Dec 3, 2011, at 2:21 AM, CBQ@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Re: new locomotives and cost
> > Posted by: "ANDREW KOETZ" andrewkoetz@... andrewkoetz
> > Fri Dec 2, 2011 10:01 pm (PST)
> >
> >
> >
> > Analogy on cost:
> >
> > Railroad locomotive builders, aircraft builders and auto makers all work
> > the same way. If you want "Package A" for options, your cost is two million
> > per locomotive, if you want "Package(s) A,B,C, your locomotive will cost
> > this much $ 40 million per locomotive. Then you throw in the changes that
> > the customer wants during the build, removing option package B, for option
> > package D. That will move the price higher, due to the list was made before
> > the build. Now the builder has to remove said options, and install the
> > other option package. The military is the same way with their new fighters
> > and bombers; which is why it takes so long to get them off the production
> > line. Auto manufacturers ask the customer; :What do you want for options:
> > Manual windows, manual transmission 4-wheel disc brakes, and an AM/FM radio
> > with no CD payer or satellite radio, 4-cylinder engine; base package
> > options. Now said options on a vehicle of your choice could only cost you
> > $15K. Now you add, power windows, door locks, satellite radio, Upgrade the
> > engine to a 6.9 liter V8 from a four cylinder. Now your vehicle cost is up
> > to $40,000.00. The USAF was having some "sticker shock" issues with the
> > C130H when it was getting built several years ago. They changed the game
> > plan in the middle of the build when the manufacturer had built several and
> > sent them out the door. The costs went through the roof for all the changes
> > the USAF wanted done to the existing C130H.
> >
> > You'd think after spending millions on a new locomotive GE could at least
> > give us a free tank of gas!!
> >
> > Ryan Gash
>
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