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Re: [CBQ] C&S 99924 Ex 513 Cheyenne

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Subject: Re: [CBQ] C&S 99924 Ex 513 Cheyenne
From: MICHAEL PANNELL <michael.pannell@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:01:35 +0000 (GMT)
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Bob,
  This is fascinating stuff, the mystery deepens then, in that the railroad 
companies didnt necessarily order the cars, does this mean that they were 
purchased by someone i.e. N Thayer and then leased to a Railroad? 
  We will look for numbers when we start work on it. Another interesting point 
is that the only area of C&S dark green on the entire car appaers to be a patch 
above the door where the number 513 is clearly visible (see photos) the rest of 
the car underneath the layer of MOW red is layer upon layer of varnish, it 
appears never to have carried paint..............we wait to see if this is the 
case but its interesting nonetheless.
   
  Mike Pannell
  Cheyenne

Bob Webber <rgz17@comcast.net> wrote:
          Restarting this....

Hol's book does not mention for whom the car was built, but it 
mentions the previous owner. This is a crucial difference (and one 
that was likely understood by some in this discussion, but by no means all).

No Pullman cars were ever built for the UPD&G. And here is where 
some history of the lines must be understood as well. To make a very 
long story short, the former GM of the UP, General G. M. Dodge had 
control of a lot of the lines that made up what was to become the 
UPD&G. This included what we might prefer to refer to as the 
FW&D. Pullman DID produce a variety of cars for the account of G.M. 
Dodge - not the railroad per se. The records are fairly rigid in this.

The cars were called for in 1887 and built in 1888. There was no 
#57. That certainly does NOT mean that these aren't the cars, as the 
equipment likely were renumbered between the original build and their 
entry to the UPD&G roster. There *are* number in the range - 6, 
45-48 being 1st class cars, & 60 - 644 being 2nd class cars. UP also 
purchased some cars in 1888, but in 3 digit series. In 1887 the only 
order by UP (which was for 10 passenger cars) was cancelled.

There *IS* another possibility, and one I haven't followed yet. One 
N. Thayer ordered 6 passenger cars in 1886 numbered 57 - 62. Someone 
more familiar with the history than I might recognize that name.

The bottom line is that, in existing records, in 1887, no passenger 
cars were ordered for any unit in the UP system (from Pullman - that 
wasn't cancelled). There *is* another possibility, one that, 
unfortunately, we don't have all the records for. The Pullman shops 
in Denver were located within the UP shops area. The Pullman Shops 
in Denver constructed some D&RG cars. We do not have a full record 
of the cars built by Pullman Denver - the description of the shops 
typically indicates that it was for maintenance and 
rebuilding. Maintenance and rebuilding on a wooden car entails no 
more effort than building a new one - often times more. So the 
capability was there. The Pullman Denver shops moved to Richmond, CA later.

Now, having said all that, there is a very easy way to discover the 
car's origin - if it is a Pullman. All of the window frames should 
be stamped with a Lot number, as well as door frame and other such 
items. It will likely be a 4 digit number in the 1200 area.

At 11:12 AM 1/12/2008, Norm Metcalf wrote:
>There seem to have been at least four of them, UPDG 57-60, 51'6", 58
>capacity, Pullman 1887. Apparently 59 didn't make it to the CS. Hol's
>book has the data on 57, 58 & 60.
> Norm Metcalf, Boulder Colorado
> > Kenneth Martin wrote:
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> According to my C&S folio book the only sister car was 514 which was
> >> converted to M/W in 1923. I am busy today but will try to scan the
> >> sheet tomorrow and send you a copy. I would like to see pics.
> >>
> >> Ken Martin
> >>
> >>
> >> MICHAEL PANNELL wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Fantastic news thanks Norm, this is why these yahoo groups are so
> >>> great. Well the news is that she is still in existence in Cheyenne
> >>> and we will shortly be attempting to move her and start restoring
> >>> the amazing complete interior and exterior.
> >>> I have photos if anyone is interested.
> >>> Is the book you mentioned years old or current ??
> >>> mike pannell
> >>>

Bob Webber 



                         


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