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Dave:
The H&StJ roster is the most incomplete of any of the Q predecessor/component roads and has many gaps, a good many due to the period when Jay Gould rather than the Q controlled the road and it was operated as a part of the Wabash system. Many early locomotives
simply disappeared and were replaced, and I have to believe that the 1865 No. 35 "General Grant" was long gone by 1897, replaced by another, newer 4-4-0 that became Q 49 in 1904.
It's certainly ironic that the Q's exhibition engine, No. 35, now on display at the Patee House museum in St. Joe as H&StJ 35, bears the number of what was, if not the first locomotive built west of the Mississippi, then certainly the first built at Hannibal.
But the exhibition engine was given the number 35 in recognition of a well-known photo of B&MR in Nebraska 4-4-0 No. 35, built in that company's shops at Plattsmouth. When it entered exhibition service in May 1932 it was lettered as B&MR 35 because it had
been completed in time to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the B&MR's arrival in Denver. It was relettered as CB&Q 35 the next year for exhibition at the Century of Progress in Chicago and finally got the H&StJ lettering (along with the name "Missouri")
in 1950 after a two-year stint at the Chicago Railroad Fair as UP No. 119.
Hol
From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Lotz <Dave_Lotz@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 11:05 AM
To: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [CBQ] H&StJ Engine #35 "General Grant" - Later CB&Q #49 - Looking for Information
All,
Pages 16 & 17 of Bulletin 23 show two more photos of the “Lt. General Grant” in served at Burlington.
In addition to the “Lt. General Grant,” the B&MRRR (Ia) also had a locomotive named the “General Grant,” a Manchester 4-4-0, (Bldr #128) that was built in 1868. It became an A-2 class number 1248 in the 1898 renumbering and 201 in the 1904 renumbering.
The Railway & Locomotive Historical Society’s “Locomotives of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad – 1855-1904” published as Part 2 in 1937, show the H&StJ-built “General Grant,” as having the number 35 in the list of locomotive of 1876. In the Inventory
of Locomotives, 1-1-97, With Changes as Made in 1898, show the 35 being renumbered the 635, In the Changes from 1898 to 1904 it shows the 635 as being given the Q 1904 number 49. Then in their “Locomotives of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad – 1904-1935”
published as Part 1 in 1936, they show the 49 as being rebuilt at Aurora in 1916 to an A-2 class and given the number 399 and was ultimately retired in March of 1929.
Dave
From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io> On Behalf Of HOL WAGNER
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 11:16 AM
To: CBQ@groups.io
Subject: Re: [CBQ] H&StJ Engine #35 "General Grant" - Later CB&Q #49 - Looking for Information
The 0-4-0T built by the New Jersey Locomotive Works in 1866 for the original B&MR in Iowa as "Lt. Gen. Grant" became CB&Q 244 in 1875, was rebuilt by the Q in 1878 (probably as a more convention 0-4-0 with tender)
and did not survive to the 1898 renumbering, although it may have lasted quite some time, as there was never a second CB&Q 244 in the 19th Century. I'm attaching a view of the unusual little engine for those who may not have seen it before. New Jersey Locomotive
& Machine Co., incidentally, became the Grant Locomotive Works in 1867.
Archie-
Sorry for the VERY tardy reply or repeat if I already did….going through my emails and clearing up stuff I should have dealt with a long time ago…
I imagine that the image is off the internet or an eBay listing. Instead of watching dribble on TV at night I use my iPad to send links to myself which I download into files on my PC. I don’t recall what the original discussion was but from Rupert’s roster
if I read everything correctly it shows the B&MR “General Grant” being #248, later becoming CB&Q #1248, then #201. The #35 was rebuilt in Denver for the Century of Progress from H&StJ 66 CB&Q 666 which was built at Aurora in 1892.
I have a print from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania of a 0-4-0 Tank engine B.&M.R.R.R. “LT. GEN. GRANT” which doesn’t show up on the B&MR or CB&Q rosters. Another puzzle to pursue!!
Charlie Vlk
From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io>
On Behalf Of Archie Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 8:07 AM
To: 'CBQ@groups.io' <CBQ@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [CBQ] H&StJ Engine #35 "General Grant" - Later CB&Q #49 - Looking for Information
Charlie, Where did you find that image of General Grant? It appears to be from an old stereo optican card. I don't believe it is the same loco that 35 evolved from.
-----------------------------------------
From: "Charlie Vlk"
To: CBQ@groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Thursday November 14 2019 2:42:04PM
Subject: Re: [CBQ] H&StJ Engine #35 "General Grant" - Later CB&Q #49 - Looking for Information
All-
According to the rosters I have the Gen. Grant #35 was built by the H&StJ in 1865.
In 1878 #35 (no name) is listed as having 48” drivers so it may have been rebuilt or gone by then as the photo attached shows a normally proportioned 4-4-0. The Gen. Grant may not have made it to the CB&Q.
Charlie
From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io>
On Behalf Of Louis Zadnichek via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:22 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io
Subject: Re: [CBQ] H&StJ Engine #35 "General Grant" - Later CB&Q #49 - Looking for Information
Peter - CB&Q 35 now on display at the Pattee House Museum in St. Joseph, MO, is
NOT the same locomotive that you're talking about, H&StJ's General Grant.
According to Steam Locomotives Of The Burlington Route by Bernard Corbin and William Kerka (copies can usually be easily found on eBay), CB&Q 35 was originally built at the Aurora,
IL, Shops for the H&StJ in 1892 as their No. 66. It was a Class A-2 4-4-0 type and was renumbered H&StJ 666 in 1898, then became CB&Q 359 in 1904. It was rebuilt at the Denver, CO, Shops in June 1932 for exhibition at the Century Of Progress and lettered
B&MR 35 (for Burlington & Missouri River RR). Thereafter, 35 became one of the CB&Q's two official exhibition locomotives and was displayed throughout the system with the replica H&StJ mail car for many years up until its donation to the Pattee House Museum
in St. Joseph. I've attached an image of 35 and its mail car taken while on display at LaGrange, IL, during September 1954.
Perhaps, some one else on this List can tell us more about the H&StJ General Grant. Best Regards - Louis
In a message dated 11/14/2019 11:57:28 AM Central Standard Time,
kmartin537=surewest.net@groups.io writes:
As Pete said it is at the Pattee house museum in St. Joseph.
I am looking for history on Hannibal & St. Joseph Railroad Engine 35, the “General Grant”, built in 1865, which I understand was the first U.S. Railway Post Office? It ran on the H&StJ, a subsidiary of CB&Q. The engine later was renumbered #635 in 1898 and
in 1904 became CB&Q Engine #49. The engine did a good-will tour in the late 1930s with the first mail car. What was it's final disposition? Did the engine survive? Is it kept anywhere that it can be seen?
Peter S. Weber
Great Grandson of CB&Q Engineer (#1307)
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