Re: [CBQ] Magazine and book resources

["sellarsmark_aus via Groups.Io" <sellarsmark_aus=yahoo.com@groups.io>]

Greetings Hol!

As always your research and willingness to share is peerless.

Mark

On Friday, 26 July 2019, 11:08:41 pm ACST, HOL WAGNER <holpennywagner@msn.com> wrote:

Mark:

Unfortunately, no, I still do not have a copy of the 1899 JOA.  Years ago I asked for a copy of the document from the Colorado Historical Society (I'm a stubborn old goat and refuse to use the History Colorado name, which I associate with their present status as an entertainment center for children), when I found it in their C&S archives.  I got a big bunch of other copies of a great variety of C&S documents and correspondence, but not the JOA and the CHS library could never find it again.  All this was well before they moved to their current quarters and further misplaced many of their holdings.  They have become a nearly useless organization when it comes to preserving Colorado history.

The Santa Fe and C&S predecessor entities worked in close accord at both Pueblo and Denver right from the start, the Santa Fe granting the Denver, Texas & Gulf/Denver, Texas & Fort Worth use of its "loop track" in Pueblo to reach the union depot there, while DT&G granted the Santa Fe the right to construct its own track on the DT&G right-of-way from South Denver to Denver Union Depot.  This was done under an 1887 agreement (which you probably have a copy of from Larry Green).  The DT&FW's 1887-88 line from Pueblo Junction up Salt Creek to Bessemer and the Colorado Coal & Iron Company iron and steel mill south of Pueblo was built by the DT&FW but with Santa Fe given a half interest in it and an equal right to serve the Philadelphia smelter, stockyards and Nuckolls Packing Plant near the steel mill.  The Santa Fe in 1887 surveyed a line in Denver that split off its mainline in the union depot and continued on along the bank of the South Platte River to 15th St. before crossing the river and turning north and then east to served the Argo and Globe smelters and the Denver Union Stockyards.  Only the portion as far as 14th St. was built, as construction of the West Side Line by the UPD&G in 1890 obviated the need for the rest of the Santa Fe line, as the Santa Fe was given access to the facilities it hoped to served with its own line.  And there are numerous instances of further close cooperation between the two roads right from the time the Santa Fe reached Denver in 1887.

At least three times during the 1890s, newspaper reports detailed plans for the two roads to begin use of the other's tracks between Denver and Pueblo, the most unlikely one calling for the Santa Fe to abandon its own trackage in favor of the inferior UPD&G route.  But there was very clearly talk of the two roads using the same trackage almost from the time the Santa Fe's Denver line was completed.  We may never know who or what actually precipitated the start of negotiations in 1899 leading to the original JOA.

Hol

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From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io> on behalf of sellarsmark_aus via Groups.Io <sellarsmark_aus=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 5:54 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Magazine and book resources

 

Greetings Hol.

Thanks for your correction.

So, it is the 1899 JOA I need. Do you have a copy?

There was a JOA between the ASTF and the SP in early 1899 (ie before the ATSF/C&S) covering the joint usage of SP's Tehachapi, CA track.

I am interested is seeing if there are similarities between the JOAs. It is likely that the Tehachapi JOA would have been reported in the railroad press. Perhaps this sparked the C&S's interest in a similar deal.

Please excuse my failing brainpower, a legacy of Indo-China circa 1970.

Mark

On Friday, 26 July 2019, 2:40:53 am ACST, HOL WAGNER <holpennywagner@msn.com> wrote:

Mark:

Your original JOA dates are off by one year.  The original JOA was effective Aug 1, 1899, as the C&S did not begin operation until Jan 12, 1899 and was not incorporated until Dec 19, 1898.  The original agreement was renewed and expanded after one year, thus in 1900, and, greatly expanded and modified, remains in effect today.

Hol

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From: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io> on behalf of sellarsmark_aus via Groups.Io <sellarsmark_aus=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:37 PM
To: CBQ@groups.io <CBQ@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Magazine and book resources

 

Hello Rupert,

I hope you are well!

I am looking for a copy of the Joint Operating Agreement ("JOA") between the Colorado & Southern and the ATSF operative from 1 August 1898 and 31 July 1899. A new JOA became operative on 1 August 1899 and it has been renewed since.

Hol Wagner says he saw a copy in the C&S archives in History Colorado (A public archive of Colorado's history in Denver, CO). The copy has grown legs or has been misfiled. History Coloardo holds most of the old C&S corporate documents.

The agreement, modified slightly, has is operative today. It covers the joint usage of the ATSF track between South Denver and Pueblo, plus ATSF usage of C&S facilities in Denver and usage by the C&S of ATSF facilities in Colorado Springs and Pueblo. The D&RGW was dragged kicking and screaming into the JOA in 1918 by the USRA. One notable change to the JOA are the new legal parties, ie BNSF and the UP.

I have copies of all the JOAs bar two; the 1898 and a 1964 renewal (for legal reasons I cannot even view this!)

Any thoughts on how I can tackle this dilemma?

I guess I need to hire a researcher with access to the C&S vaults (in Chicago?)

Mark Sellars

South Australia

On Thursday, 25 July 2019, 8:43:10 am ACST, Rupert Gamlen <gamlenz@hotmail.com> wrote:

These are some of the basic resources I use for on-line research.

Hathi Trust https://www.hathitrust.org/ my first choice, with perhaps the biggest inventory of pre-1923 material railroad related material. This includes CB&Q directors reports, tourism books, CB&Q official history, etc. For example, almost all volumes up to 1923 of Railroad Gazette, Railway Age and American Railroad Journal are available. Volumes of a particular title may be on several pages and may not necessarily be in chronological order. Although much of the scanned material comes from Google Books, the downloads are searchable.

Individual pages can be downloaded as pdf or download the whole/part book using Hathi Download Helper from https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/ amongst other sites. This is slow with about 30 pages downloading every 5 minutes, but I leave it running while I do other things.

Linda Hall Library http://lhldigital.lindahall.org/cdm/search/collection/rrjournal/order/title/ad/asc This will give you access to 7500+ railroad magazines up to 1900, including Railroad Master Mechanic, National Car Builder, Railroad Car Journal, etc. which are not available elsewhere. You cannot view the books on-line but need to download each issue separately. Tiresome but worth it.

Archive https://archive.org/index.php part of the Library of Congress. Limited material but has some books and magazines not found elsewhere. Search facility is not as good as Hathi but adequate. Books can be downloaded in different formats.

Google Books https://books.google.com/ This site gives access to some magazines and books that are not available elsewhere including some post-1922, but the selection is not as good as Hathi. You can download from this site but, having done so, you will not be able to search that pdf yourself. You have to use the website search function which is limited. Other problems are that it is hard to find the volume you seek as they are not in year order, there is no guarantee that having downloaded a copy it will still be available for searching at a later date, and it blocks non-U.S. residents from many items for no apparent reason, even pre-1923 material.

LOC newspapers https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/ There are other sites that require payment for access, although you may be able to access them through your library.

JSTOR https://www.jstor.org/ is a digital library. You may be able to access it through your local library, or you can pay a subscription for downloading, or you can sign up and get reading access to 6 publications a month. Individual pages can be copied with screen prints.

Railway & Locomotive Historical Society http://www.rlhs.org/Publications/RailHistoryIndex/ Publications can be accessed through JSTOR

If you want help to explore these sites or are looking for a particular publication, let me or one of the other researchers know and we’ll try to help.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

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