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[CBQ] Re: JJH and the Q

To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CBQ] Re: JJH and the Q
From: "Gerald Edgar" <vje68@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:01:58 -0000
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I have in my RR library 4 primary bios of Hill inc. a 2 vol one that is 
considered definitive.  No mention that Hill felt the CB&Q was a less than 
desirable partner.  Bear in mind too this was a two-way street at the time.  
Hill had Rockefeller interests backing him and the Q had Forbes & other Boston 
money.  Lurking elsewhere were the UP & Harriman interests et al. All were 
jockeying for position just as were the Eastern roads. Per Overton's books, the 
Q looked into acquiring GN.  It was all a question of how best to benefit 
stockholders; buy or sell and if so at what cost/price?  
This might be a good topic for a future Lexington group meeting.
Gerald

--- In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, "Phillips, III, J.A." <whstlpnk@...> wrote:
>
> Charlie Vlk wrote on the Q list:
> 
> ...This may be heresy, but..
> ...When James J. Hill was trying to get the GN and NP into Chicago the CB&Q 
> was not his first choice.   He would have preferred getting the Milwaukee 
> Road or the Wisconsin Central/Soo Line. He was of the opinion that The Q was 
> a poorly built railroad and stated that it had more curves and grades on the 
> prairies than the GN had crossing the Rockies.
> ...While the CB&Q was a progressive railroad in many ways, in the early days 
> I am beginning to believe that The Empire Builder was correct. The CB&Q had a 
> continuous program of line relocations, curve easing, grade reductions and 
> other general improvements after the turn of the century that suggest that 
> there was plenty to do. 
> 
> I think you may have gotten a hold of some bad info on that one. I can think 
> of a guy in Montana who would make this sort of argument, generally based on 
> what he likes to say is "reading between the lines" of corporate 
> correspondence, but what always appeared to me to be reading "into" the lines 
> to me. As a matter of fact, the NP had the WC in its pocket for a while from 
> Villard's return to the Board ca. 1886-7, until the second reorganization in 
> the wake of the Panic of 1893. In typical Villard fashion, he leased it from 
> his cronies without bothering to figure out if the rate he was going to pay 
> was worth it. (Wasn't.) All three of the big Hill components suffered from 
> the rough-and-ready era of railroading, all three dumped money back into the 
> plant for years to come to sort out some of the more interesting engineering 
> feats of the construction era. GN's Bob Downing made a point which stuck in 
> my head, noting that something like 40 percent of the much-vaunted GN wound 
> up on a line relocation _after_ its golden spike. I presume the NP put up 
> similar numbers. As for poorly built, Hill and the NP didn't put the Q in 
> their pocket until about the turn-of-the-century, by which time all three 
> roads were already well on their upgrading their plants phase (as was EHH on 
> the UP). Why on earth Hill would agree to the _massive_ two-hundred-per-share 
> asked for by Charles Elliott Perkins if he thought the Q was a second-rate 
> property is... unbelievable. Harriman wouldn't meet it, and as far as I know, 
> Hill never courted any road but the Q as St. Paul's access to Chicago and the 
> Middle West. As it was, the Q was the big earner of Hill's big three anyway, 
> and whenever mergers were trotted out prior to 1955, St. Paul would never 
> agree to let go of the Q in order to consummate the deal. (I note the 1925-33 
> merger work under Elliott and Budd almost got the Federal green light ca. 
> 1930-3, but only if it came with divestiture of the Q. No deal.)
> 
> FWIW
> John Phillips
> Seattle
>




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