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Come to think of it the C&NW cars were not the ones the later purchased (they came in1964 after 47/48 came off). They were per deim cars rented from the C&NW. From: "Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com" <Jpslhedgpeth@aol.com> To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [CBQ] Fwd: [PCL] Interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s I was assigned to the Rock Island Division of the Rock Island during my final days as a Trainee from August 160-January 31 1961.
I remember this train coming down the "Wall Track" at Rock Island in the evening and I was there when it's last run was made..IIRC...January sometime...1961.
What I didn't realize until fairly recently is that the train came in from the Galesburg line via Barstow through Moline and down the Wall Track to Rock Island and then it crossed over the river to Davenport and headed back north on the West Side of the River to Savanna.
I had sometimes wondered how the train got turned around at RI, but never looked into it...I later learned that it didn't get turned around.
Also it was about this time that the old Burlington Depot at Rock Island burned.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: rgortowski <rgortowski@aol.com> To: CBQ <CBQ@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 8:08 pm Subject: [CBQ] Fwd: [PCL] Interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s I had answered part of the question on the Passenger Car List earlier - basically telling about 47/48 in the 1950 time frame. I'm glad someone knows why the Pullman was used.
Rich G.
-----Original Message-----
From: rgortowski <rgortowski@aol.com> To: PassengerCarList <PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:47 am Subject: Re: [PCL] Interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s John,
My expertise on this Q train is from 1948-50. The use of the train may have changed somewhat in later years. I'll look at some of the additional information I have on this for the period you are talking about. Train 47/48 was the St. Louis-Galesburg-St. Paul-Minneapolis hand maiden of many stops. In 1950 it was a near 24 hour death trudge from St. Louis to Minneapolis (no diner - meal stops.) The reverse route was a modest 19 plus hours. It served Beardstown and Galesburg on it's long route to St. Paul/Minneapolis. It technically terminated at Savanna, Illinois, where the Pullman was transferred into and out of the Q's Blackhawk - the Chicago/Minneapolis night train (called 47-53 and 48-54.) 47/48 also passed an RPO to the Blackhawk to take to Minneapolis/St. Paul. The coach passengers had to transfer to the Blackhawk coaches and the some head end waited at Savanna for
Chicago/Minneapolis head end trains 45/52.
The Pullman angle is interesting. During it's wanders through Illinois, 47/48 stopped in Rock Island, Illinois to pick up a Pullman at 8:05 pm. It pulled out of RI at 9:30 pm. This Pullman went to Savanna, Illinois. - a short 60 miles, and was set out for insertion to the Blackhawk. The train arrived at Savanna at 12:15 am and departed on the Blackhawk at 2:31 am for an eventual delivery to St. Paul at 8:15 am and Minneapolis at 8:50 am. The Blackhawk dropped this Pullman at Savanna - in the morning - on the return trip and the Pullman terminated in Rock Island.
According to an old John Deere employee, the main purpose of the Pullman sleeper (10-1-1 Pullman line 475/485 in December 1950) was to provide transit from the John Deere Moline, IL plant (part of the Quad Cities) to St. Paul/Minneapolis in time to arrive for the business day. This makes sense, as I see no other burning reason to provide Pullman service from Rock Island to St. Paul on the Q. Since the Q owned few 10-1-1 type cars, these were likely from the Pullman pool.
This JD employee talks about how, even in 1949/50, you could see this train pulled by a Q Pacific steamer. Around 1950/51, it switched to standard E units.
To complicate this matter further, the Q was owned by the Great Northern and Northern Pacific - the "Hill Lines." Both the owners terminated at St. Paul and the Q was their only route into Chicago. The Blackhawk, in 1950, was combined with the Great Northern's Oriental Limited - the second Chicago-Seattle transcontinental - both to and out of St. Paul. The combined Blackhawk/Oriental Limited in 1950 was an enormous train - perhaps up to 20 cars. To see that they spent 20 minutes at Savanna, Illinois to execute the transfers from 47/48 is interesting.
Certainly an complex story!
Rich G.
-----Original Message-----
From: jshorvath10583 <jshorvath10583@yahoo.com> To: PassengerCarList <PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 10:26 pm Subject: [PCL] interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s I happened across a sequence of photos today that show CB&Q passenger train #47-48 in late 1955-early 1956. I only have a July 1953 OG to go by but apparently these were St. Louis-Minneapolis trains (on paper at least) that took the long way via an all-Q routing on the east side of the Mississippi (as opposed to the more-direct jointly-operated Q-RI routing along the west side). It was a sloooow ride, almost 24 hours, with extended station stops in several places.
In any event, in 1953 at least #47-48 had no through cars between St. Louis and the Twin Cities. I get the impression they were primarily all-stops coach + M&E locals between St. Louis and the Chicago-Twin Cities main in Savanna, IL where connections were made with mainline trains. In 1953 at least these trains also handled a sleeper to/from the Quad Cities that made connections in Savanna for forwarding to/from the Twin Cities. What caught my eye is that on several days at least during the aforementioned timeframe it appears a HW sleeper not owned by the CB&Q was used as the coach between St. Louis and Savanna. Here's the photos showing a total of three different trains on two different days. The sleepers are C&NW and L&N owned, the former a Plan 3973A 10-1-1 (recently renamed) and the latter a Plan 3410 12-1: 29 December 1955: http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627021867&k=3R2Fa http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835388792&k=8xxrx6b&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835388053&k=p366LdL http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835384332&k=xn2Gc4J&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835385982&k=DQ3N3NL&lb=1&s=A 3 January 1956: http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627022695&k=DZvHD&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627008577&k=iGYF4&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835398759&k=hJ3drhN&lb=1&s=A Can someone who's knowledgeable about the Q explain the reason for using HW Pullmans like this? Was the Q so strapped for coaches during the holiday period that they needed to go to the Pullman pool for sleepers to use? Thanks. John S. Horvath __._,_.___
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