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I had answered part of the question on the Passenger Car List earlier - basically telling about 47/48 in the 1950 time frame. I'm glad someone knows why the Pullman was used.
Rich G.
-----Original Message-----
From: rgortowski <rgortowski@aol.com> To: PassengerCarList <PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:47 am Subject: Re: [PCL] Interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s John,
My expertise on this Q train is from 1948-50. The use of the train may have changed somewhat in later years. I'll look at some of the additional information I have on this for the period you are talking about. Train 47/48 was the St. Louis-Galesburg-St. Paul-Minneapolis hand maiden of many stops. In 1950 it was a near 24 hour death trudge from St. Louis to Minneapolis (no diner - meal stops.) The reverse route was a modest 19 plus hours. It served Beardstown and Galesburg on it's long route to St. Paul/Minneapolis. It technically terminated at Savanna, Illinois, where the Pullman was transferred into and out of the Q's Blackhawk - the Chicago/Minneapolis night train (called 47-53 and 48-54.) 47/48 also passed an RPO to the Blackhawk to take to Minneapolis/St. Paul. The coach passengers had to transfer to the Blackhawk coaches and the some head end waited at Savanna for Chicago/Minneapolis head end trains 45/52.
The Pullman angle is interesting. During it's wanders through Illinois, 47/48 stopped in Rock Island, Illinois to pick up a Pullman at 8:05 pm. It pulled out of RI at 9:30 pm. This Pullman went to Savanna, Illinois. - a short 60 miles, and was set out for insertion to the Blackhawk. The train arrived at Savanna at 12:15 am and departed on the Blackhawk at 2:31 am for an eventual delivery to St. Paul at 8:15 am and Minneapolis at 8:50 am. The Blackhawk dropped this Pullman at Savanna - in the morning - on the return trip and the Pullman terminated in Rock Island.
According to an old John Deere employee, the main purpose of the Pullman sleeper (10-1-1 Pullman line 475/485 in December 1950) was to provide transit from the John Deere Moline, IL plant (part of the Quad Cities) to St. Paul/Minneapolis in time to arrive for the business day. This makes sense, as I see no other burning reason to provide Pullman service from Rock Island to St. Paul on the Q. Since the Q owned few 10-1-1 type cars, these were likely from the Pullman pool.
This JD employee talks about how, even in 1949/50, you could see this train pulled by a Q Pacific steamer. Around 1950/51, it switched to standard E units.
To complicate this matter further, the Q was owned by the Great Northern and Northern Pacific - the "Hill Lines." Both the owners terminated at St. Paul and the Q was their only route into Chicago. The Blackhawk, in 1950, was combined with the Great Northern's Oriental Limited - the second Chicago-Seattle transcontinental - both to and out of St. Paul. The combined Blackhawk/Oriental Limited in 1950 was an enormous train - perhaps up to 20 cars. To see that they spent 20 minutes at Savanna, Illinois to execute the transfers from 47/48 is interesting.
Certainly an complex story!
Rich G.
-----Original Message-----
From: jshorvath10583 <jshorvath10583@yahoo.com> To: PassengerCarList <PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 10:26 pm Subject: [PCL] interesting use of HW Pullmans, CB&Q in the 1950s I happened across a sequence of photos today that show CB&Q passenger train #47-48 in late 1955-early 1956. I only have a July 1953 OG to go by but apparently these were St. Louis-Minneapolis trains (on paper at least) that took the long way via an all-Q routing on the east side of the Mississippi (as opposed to the more-direct jointly-operated Q-RI routing along the west side). It was a sloooow ride, almost 24 hours, with extended station stops in several places.
In any event, in 1953 at least #47-48 had no through cars between St. Louis and the Twin Cities. I get the impression they were primarily all-stops coach + M&E locals between St. Louis and the Chicago-Twin Cities main in Savanna, IL where connections were made with mainline trains. In 1953 at least these trains also handled a sleeper to/from the Quad Cities that made connections in Savanna for forwarding to/from the Twin Cities. What caught my eye is that on several days at least during the aforementioned timeframe it appears a HW sleeper not owned by the CB&Q was used as the coach between St. Louis and Savanna. Here's the photos showing a total of three different trains on two different days. The sleepers are C&NW and L&N owned, the former a Plan 3973A 10-1-1 (recently renamed) and the latter a Plan 3410 12-1: 29 December 1955: http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627021867&k=3R2Fa http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835388792&k=8xxrx6b&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835388053&k=p366LdL http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835384332&k=xn2Gc4J&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835385982&k=DQ3N3NL&lb=1&s=A 3 January 1956: http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627022695&k=DZvHD&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=627008577&k=iGYF4&lb=1&s=A http://www.westernrailimages.com/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/Chicago-Burlington-Quincy/7248140_p6xkXz#!i=1835398759&k=hJ3drhN&lb=1&s=A Can someone who's knowledgeable about the Q explain the reason for using HW Pullmans like this? Was the Q so strapped for coaches during the holiday period that they needed to go to the Pullman pool for sleepers to use? Thanks. John S. Horvath __._,_.___
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