HOL:
Would you please respond to me via e-mail tcz.silverview@att.net. Wonderful
details about my favorite of all Zephyrs. As some of you may know, I am owner
of Twin Zephyrs Dome Parlor SILVER VIEW. It is in rehab in St. Louis and
hopefully will be in service within a year or two. Through E-Bay I was able to
get a pic of SILVER VIEW on its way around the Minneapolis wye leaving its
status as P-21 to become P-24.
On a final trip in April, 1971 I stayed in the lead dome of SILVER BLUFF during
the wying maneuver. The haughty trainman was upset when he discovered me until
he heard that I was a former Q-Passenger Dept. employee. The discontinuance of
this route and 'my' Zephyrs broke my heart,and it will always bother me the
rest of my life.
In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, Norm Metcalf <n.metcalf@...> wrote:
>
> HOL WAGNER wrote:
> > Norm: Please post this to the Q list in response to the question about
> > turning the Twin Zephyrs at Mpls.
> >
> > Hol
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* JWSchultz
> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [CBQ] Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.
> >
> > Hol--
> >
> > I'll endeavor to answer the question; here goes. Burlington
> > doubled Twin Zephyr service on June 2, 1935, requiring each consist to
> > make a daily round-trip. The October-November-December 1935 public
> > timetable shows No. 21 arriving Minneapolis at 3:00 p.m. and the same
> > consist departing as No. 24 at 4:00 p.m. For comparative purposes, Nos.
> > 22-23 observed an identical schedule in Chicago, arriving at 3 o'clock
> > and departing at 4. If anything, the Chicago performance was the more
> > demanding of the two, and Burlington installed a fuel stanchion and
> > water supply at the south end of Chicago's 14th St. coach yard for the
> > sole purpose of fueling/watering No. 22-23's motor. .
> >
> > Previously, there was no comparable operation with steam; literally all
> > conventional steam-powered passenger consists (Nos. 45-52, the
> > Mississippi Riverview and Nos. 47-48, the Black Hawk), made daily
> > one-way trips between Chicago and Minneapolis. The closest comparison
> > that can be made with conventional equipment and steam occurred when a
> > Zephyr consist was out-of-service and a conventional train was
> > substituted. During July 1935, on at least two consecutive days, Nos.
> > 21-24 were protected with a four-car consist (unoccupied "buffer"
> > combine [in an attempt to put some distance between the passengers and
> > the steam locomotive], chair car, diner, and parlor), powered by
> > Pacific's. Engines were changed northbound at North La Crosse; I don't
> > know if this was done southbound or in either direction at Savanna or at
> > Minneapolis. From other information I've gleaned, I believe the intent
> > was to have the one consist make the round-trip, but the Q quickly
> > developed the practice of assembling "make-up" consists for either Nos.
> > 22 or 24 using its chair cars and either GN or NP diners and lounge cars
> > [the latter used as parlor cars] or a Pullman.
> >
> > Another steam example on the eve of the original Twins' replacement with
> > Trains of the Gods and Goddesses: from September 17 to 22, 1936, Nos.
> > 21-24 ran with conventional equipment; here's 21 on September 17: S-4
> > Hudson 3010, buffer combine 3516, chair car 4523, and
> > dining-lounge-(solarium) observation 325. My notes indicate that it was
> > the intent to operate the 3010 Chicago to Minneapolis without change; a
> > different S-4 would return the same three-car consist to Chicago as No.
> > 24. During this period, it was stipulated that S-4s would be used for
> > power.
> >
> > Schedules remained unchanged after the Trains of the Gods and Goddesses
> > entered service (per the June-September 1937 public timetable). Use of
> > S-4-A Hudson (AEolian) No. 4000 as a substitute for the diesel on either
> > Nos. 21-24 or Nos. 22-23 saw the steam locomotive make the entire
> > 874-mile round-trip.
> >
> > Effective January 21, 1939, schedules were tightened in response to
> > heightened Hiawatha competition. No. 21 left Chicago at 8:45 a.m, and
> > arrived Minneapolis at 3:30; 24 retained its 4:00 p.m. Minneapolis
> > departure, but arrived Chicago at 10:59. (Nos. 22-23 continued to
> > observe the scheduled one-hour dwell/turn-around in Chicago.)
> >
> > Effective January 28, 1940, schedules were further tightened (primarilly
> > the result of shifting the Zephyrs from the La Crosse "city line" to the
> > freight bypass or "bluff line"). No. 21 left Chicago at 9:00 a.m.
> > and arrived Minneapolis at 3:30; No. 24 left Minneapolis at 4:00 and
> > arrived Chicago at 10:45 p.m. No. 22 left Chicago at 8:00 a.m.
> > and arrived Chicago at 2:40 p.m.; No. 23 left Chicago at 3:30 p.m. and
> > returned to Minneapolis at 10:15 p.m.
> >
> > The January-February 1943 public timetable eased all Chicago-St. Paul
> > Zephyr timings 15 minutes in response to the December 6, 1942 directive
> > from the Office of Defense Transportation stipulating that fast trains
> > throughout the country be slowed to conserve equipment by the presumable
> > reduction of wear and tear. No. 21 left Chicago at 9:00 a.m., arrived
> > St. Paul and Minneapolis at 3:15 and 3:45 respectively, but No. 24
> > continued to observe Minneapolis departure at 4:00 p.m. From my
> > railroad experience, I'm fairly certain the 15-minute dwell and
> > turn-around was more theory than fact. (By comparison, 22 left
> > Minneapolis at 7:45 a.m, and arrived Chicago at 2:40 p.m.; No. 23 left
> > Chicago at 4 o'clock and arrived Minneapolis at 10:30 p.m.;
> > subsequently, 22 reverted to an 8 o'clock departure at Minneapolis,
> > arriving Chicago at 2:55 p.m.; No. 23 's departure was set back to 4
> > o'clock, and the train arrived in Minneapolis at 11:00 p.m.)
> >
> > Nos. 21-24's scheduled 15-minute Minneapolis dwell/turn-around was
> > observed until the October-December 1947 public timetable changed 24's
> > Minneapolis departure from 4:00 to 4:15 p.m., giving Minneapolis forces
> > a full half-hour to turn and service the train. The Q removed 15
> > minutes from 22's schedule and added the time to Nos. 22-23's Chicago
> > dwell (2:40 p.m.--4:00 p.m.). I've been unable to determine the date
> > that the ODT rescinded its order, but the Milwaukee had begun to tighten
> > Hiawatha schedules the previous June.
> >
> > The May 19, 1952 issue of Railway Age magazine included an article about
> > Nos. 21-24's Minneapolis turn-around. It required three days for the
> > Railway Age photographer to obtain the necessary photographs due to his
> > inability to keep pace with the activity.
> >
> > The November 1957-April 1958 public timetable lengthened Twin Zephyr
> > schedules and both Minneapolis and Chicago turn-arounds of Nos. 21-24
> > and 22-23 (due to the replacement of four-aspect semaphore block signals
> > with three-aspect searchlight signals between North La Crosse and St.
> > Croix tower [Hastings], restricting maximum authorized speed from 90 to
> > 79 mph). Departing Chicago at 9 o'clock, 21 arrived St. Paul and
> > Minneapolis at 3:25 and 3:45 respectively; No. 24 departed Minneapolis
> > at 4:20 p.m, (4:50 p.m. at St. Paul), and arrived Chicago at 11:15 p.m.
> > No. 22 left Minneapolis and St. Paul at 7:55 and 8:25 a.m. respectively
> > and arrived Chicago at 2;45 p.m.; No. 23 left Chicago at 4:15 p.m. and
> > was scheduled back in the Twin Cities at 10:40 and 11:00 p.m.
> > respectively. Earlier, Nos. 22-23 Chicago dwell had increased to 95
> > minutes.
> >
> > Over the course of the ensuing six and a half years, the Q made minor
> > adjustments to the schedules of Nos. 21-24, which increased Minneapolis
> > dwell to 35 and, eventually, 40 minutes. Then on April 26, 1964, the
> > Minneapolis turn-around was discontinued. No. 21 operated with
> > Minneapolis baggage car, dome-parlor-observation, and coaches, and St.
> > Paul dining car, coaches, and buffet car (when operated), arriving
> > Minneapolis at 2:50 p.m. No. 24 departed Minneapolis with a separate
> > set of equipment (that had arrived on the preceding day's No. 21), and
> > picked-up the diner, coaches, and buffet car in St. Paul that had been
> > set-out by that day's No. 21. The stated reason for the change was to
> > effect better connections in Chicago off No. 24, but it acknowledged
> > that both Nos. 21 and 24 had become erratic time-keepers and that any
> > delays to No. 21 could no longer be recovered by No. 24.
> >
> > This regimen was observed until June 9, 1968, at which time Burlington
> > resumed turning back No. 21's inbound train from Minneapolis the same
> > afternoon as No. 24. No. 21 arrived Minneapolis at 3:15 p.m. and No. 24
> > departed at 3:55 p.m. By now, the baggage, parlor, and dining cars had
> > been replaced with a baggage-buffet car, and most days the train
> > consisted of a single motor, the baggage-buffet, and two to three
> > (vista-dome) chair cars. This routine was followed through the end on
> > service in April 1970.
> >
> > On a July 1969 ride on Nos. 7 and 10 (renumbered from Nos. 21 and 24 the
> > preceding October), No. 7 suffered about two hours of delay due to a
> > minor freight-train derailment at Savanna. That afternoon, the Q turned
> > No. 7 back from St. Paul as No. 10, and ran a Minneapolis-St. Paul "Stub
> > 10" and "Stub 7" round-trip with an E-unit and two chair cars
> > (laying-over between inbound and outbound Black Hawks). Though I didn't
> > appreciate it at the time, this tactic had undoubtedly been employed
> > throughout the preceding three decades when No. 21 was running late.
> > That November, I rode a one-motor, three-car No. 7/No. 10 into and out
> > of Minneapolis, and was permitted to remain aboard and ride around the
> > wye and into (and out of) the coach yard. I don't remember much about
> > the experience, other than the ride around the wye and back-up move into
> > the coach yard was crisply executed, and once in the coach yard, the
> > conductor (who'd invited me to remain aboard) admonished me to remain
> > aboard as "we won't be here very long."
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > I should apologize for remaining incognito following my departure from
> > Colorado. A number of personal matters converged all at once, and the
> > problems of a comparatively small regional railroad seem to demand the
> > same amount of time as those of a huge class-one territory.
> >
> > After several changes in personnel (and taking two years to lay-out two
> > chapters of the first Zephyr book), Bob Hundman decided to exit the
> > book-publishing business (or at least the multi-volume book-publishing
> > business). Hence, I've concluded the best thing to do is hold-off until
> > retirement (in 2013), then self-publish the Zephyr manuscript if it
> > appears there is still a market sufficient to make it viable. I still
> > believe there is, though probably in the 900-to-1200 volume range. I
> > suspect the University of Minnesota Press would consider publishing the
> > Twin Zephyr history (to compliment its reprinted Scribbins' Hiawatha and
> > 400 histories), but probably not the others (and would probably not
> > entertain multiple volumes)
> >
> > Speaking of writing, do you still have a copy of my Naperville wreck
> > manuscript, and if so, could you please send me a copy? Thanks.
> >
> > Good to hear from you.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > >
> > Bill:
> >
> > I'm not a member of the Q group on Yahoo, but a friend sends me
> > items he thinks will interest me, including this one. You're the
> > obvious one to answer this question, and if you choose to do so, you
> > can either send the answer back to me and I'll get Norm Metcalf to
> > post it, or you can send it to Ed DeRouin, as he is a member of the
> > group.
> >
> > I've written over a million words now on my history of the first 10
> > years of the C&S -- the
> > pre-Q era. This one most definitely will never be published!
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> > Hol
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [CBQ] Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.
> >
> > Dave H wrote:
> > > One of the docents at the Jackson Street Roundhouse in St Paul MN
> > is working on a Zephyr Anniversary Display. He asks:
> > >
> > > Will you ask your Burlington Yahoo group about the turn time for
> > the
> > > Zephyr in Minneapolis. I am particularly interested in steam vs.
> > the
> > > original Zephyr train set in the 40's era. In the Burlington
> > > Historical magazine, Ralph Budd mentions that one train set
> > replaces
> > > two steam engines and six cars on the run to KC, I am sure this
> > has to
> > > do with the turn time of the Steam locomotives but it would be
> > nice to
> > > have more information. I am using this in the Zephyr Anniversary
> > > exhibit at the MTM's Jackson Street Roundhouse. It looks to me
> > from
> > > the photo record taken by the Star and Tribune that the train set
> > was
> > > turned on the wye after being unloaded then backed into the
> > Burlington
> > > coach yards west of the Minneapolis depot for cleaning and fueling
> > > before being pulled back into the depot for the return trip.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance
> > >
> > > Dave H
> > >
>
------------------------------------
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