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[CBQ] Re: Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.

To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CBQ] Re: Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.
From: "Mike Abernethy" <tcz.silverview@att.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:52:03 -0000
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HOL:
 Would you please respond to me via e-mail tcz.silverview@att.net. Wonderful 
details about my favorite of all Zephyrs. As some of you may know, I am owner 
of Twin Zephyrs Dome Parlor SILVER VIEW. It is in rehab in St. Louis and 
hopefully will be in service within a year or two. Through E-Bay I was able to 
get a pic of SILVER VIEW on its way around the Minneapolis wye leaving its 
status as P-21 to become P-24. 
On a final trip in April, 1971 I stayed in the lead dome of SILVER BLUFF during 
the wying maneuver. The haughty trainman was upset when he discovered me until 
he heard that I was a former Q-Passenger Dept. employee. The discontinuance of 
this route and 'my' Zephyrs broke my heart,and it will always bother me the 
rest of my life.




 In CBQ@yahoogroups.com, Norm Metcalf <n.metcalf@...> wrote:
>
> HOL WAGNER wrote:
> > Norm:  Please post this to the Q list in response to the question about 
> > turning the Twin Zephyrs at Mpls.
> >  
> > Hol
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* JWSchultz
> >  *Sent:* Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:48 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [CBQ] Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.
> > 
> > Hol--
> >  
> > I'll endeavor to answer the question; here goes.  Burlington 
> > doubled Twin Zephyr service on June 2, 1935, requiring each consist to 
> > make a daily round-trip.  The October-November-December 1935 public 
> > timetable shows No. 21 arriving Minneapolis at 3:00 p.m. and the same 
> > consist departing as No. 24 at 4:00 p.m.  For comparative purposes, Nos. 
> > 22-23 observed an identical schedule in Chicago, arriving at 3 o'clock 
> > and departing at 4.  If anything, the Chicago performance was the more 
> > demanding of the two, and Burlington installed a fuel stanchion and 
> > water supply at the south end of Chicago's 14th St. coach yard for the 
> > sole purpose of fueling/watering No. 22-23's motor.  .   
> >  
> > Previously, there was no comparable operation with steam; literally all 
> > conventional steam-powered passenger consists (Nos. 45-52, the 
> > Mississippi Riverview and Nos. 47-48, the Black Hawk), made daily 
> > one-way trips between Chicago and Minneapolis.  The closest comparison 
> > that can be made with conventional equipment and steam occurred when a 
> > Zephyr consist was out-of-service and a conventional train was 
> > substituted.  During July 1935, on at least two consecutive days, Nos. 
> > 21-24 were protected with a four-car consist (unoccupied "buffer" 
> > combine [in an attempt to put some distance between the passengers and 
> > the steam locomotive], chair car, diner, and parlor), powered by 
> > Pacific's.  Engines were changed northbound at North La Crosse; I don't 
> > know if this was done southbound or in either direction at Savanna or at 
> > Minneapolis.  From other information I've gleaned, I believe the intent 
> > was to have the one consist make the round-trip, but the Q quickly 
> > developed the practice of assembling "make-up" consists for either Nos. 
> > 22 or 24 using its chair cars and either GN or NP diners and lounge cars 
> > [the latter used as parlor cars] or a Pullman.
> >  
> > Another steam example on the eve of the original Twins' replacement with 
> > Trains of the Gods and Goddesses: from September 17 to 22, 1936, Nos. 
> > 21-24 ran with conventional equipment; here's 21 on September 17:  S-4 
> > Hudson 3010, buffer combine 3516, chair car 4523, and 
> > dining-lounge-(solarium) observation 325.  My notes indicate that it was 
> > the intent to operate the 3010 Chicago to Minneapolis without change; a 
> > different S-4 would return the same three-car consist to Chicago as No. 
> > 24.  During this period, it was stipulated that S-4s would be used for 
> > power.
> >  
> > Schedules remained unchanged after the Trains of the Gods and Goddesses 
> > entered service (per the June-September 1937 public timetable).  Use of 
> > S-4-A Hudson (AEolian) No. 4000 as a substitute for the diesel on either 
> > Nos. 21-24 or Nos. 22-23 saw the steam locomotive make the entire 
> > 874-mile round-trip.    
> >  
> > Effective January 21, 1939, schedules were tightened in response to 
> > heightened Hiawatha competition.  No. 21 left Chicago at 8:45 a.m, and 
> > arrived Minneapolis at 3:30; 24 retained its 4:00 p.m. Minneapolis 
> > departure, but arrived Chicago at 10:59. (Nos. 22-23 continued to 
> > observe the scheduled one-hour dwell/turn-around in Chicago.)
> >  
> > Effective January 28, 1940, schedules were further tightened (primarilly 
> > the result of shifting the Zephyrs from the La Crosse "city line" to the 
> > freight bypass or "bluff line").  No. 21 left Chicago at 9:00 a.m. 
> > and arrived Minneapolis at 3:30; No. 24 left Minneapolis at 4:00 and 
> > arrived Chicago at 10:45 p.m. No. 22 left Chicago at 8:00 a.m. 
> > and arrived Chicago at 2:40 p.m.; No. 23 left Chicago at 3:30 p.m. and 
> > returned to Minneapolis at 10:15 p.m.
> >  
> > The January-February 1943 public timetable eased all Chicago-St. Paul 
> > Zephyr timings 15 minutes in response to the December 6, 1942 directive 
> > from the Office of Defense Transportation stipulating that fast trains 
> > throughout the country be slowed to conserve equipment by the presumable 
> > reduction of wear and tear.  No. 21 left Chicago at 9:00 a.m., arrived 
> > St. Paul and Minneapolis at 3:15 and 3:45 respectively, but No. 24 
> > continued to observe Minneapolis departure at 4:00 p.m.  From my 
> > railroad experience, I'm fairly certain the 15-minute dwell and 
> > turn-around was more theory than fact.  (By comparison, 22 left 
> > Minneapolis at 7:45 a.m, and arrived Chicago at 2:40 p.m.; No. 23 left 
> > Chicago at 4 o'clock and arrived Minneapolis at 10:30 p.m.; 
> > subsequently, 22 reverted to an 8 o'clock departure at Minneapolis, 
> > arriving Chicago at 2:55 p.m.; No. 23 's departure was set back to 4 
> > o'clock, and the train arrived in Minneapolis at 11:00 p.m.) 
> >  
> > Nos. 21-24's scheduled 15-minute Minneapolis dwell/turn-around was 
> > observed until the October-December 1947 public timetable changed 24's 
> > Minneapolis departure from 4:00 to 4:15 p.m., giving Minneapolis forces 
> > a full half-hour to turn and service the train.  The Q removed 15 
> > minutes from 22's schedule and added the time to Nos. 22-23's Chicago 
> > dwell (2:40 p.m.--4:00 p.m.).  I've been unable to determine the date 
> > that the ODT rescinded its order, but the Milwaukee had begun to tighten 
> > Hiawatha schedules the previous June.
> >  
> > The May 19, 1952 issue of Railway Age magazine included an article about 
> > Nos. 21-24's Minneapolis turn-around.  It required three days for the 
> > Railway Age photographer to obtain the necessary photographs due to his 
> > inability to keep pace with the activity.
> >  
> > The November 1957-April 1958 public timetable lengthened Twin Zephyr 
> > schedules and both Minneapolis and Chicago turn-arounds of Nos. 21-24 
> > and 22-23 (due to the replacement of four-aspect semaphore block signals 
> > with three-aspect searchlight signals between North La Crosse and St. 
> > Croix tower [Hastings], restricting maximum authorized speed from 90 to 
> > 79 mph).  Departing Chicago at 9 o'clock, 21 arrived St. Paul and 
> > Minneapolis at 3:25 and 3:45 respectively; No. 24 departed Minneapolis 
> > at 4:20 p.m, (4:50 p.m. at St. Paul), and arrived Chicago at 11:15 p.m.  
> > No. 22 left Minneapolis and St. Paul at 7:55 and 8:25 a.m. respectively 
> > and arrived Chicago at 2;45 p.m.; No. 23 left Chicago at 4:15 p.m. and 
> > was scheduled back in the Twin Cities at 10:40 and 11:00 p.m. 
> > respectively.  Earlier, Nos. 22-23 Chicago dwell had increased to 95 
> > minutes.
> >  
> > Over the course of the ensuing six and a half years, the Q made minor 
> > adjustments to the schedules of Nos. 21-24, which increased Minneapolis 
> > dwell to 35 and, eventually, 40 minutes.  Then on April 26, 1964, the 
> > Minneapolis turn-around was discontinued.  No. 21 operated with 
> > Minneapolis baggage car, dome-parlor-observation, and coaches, and St. 
> > Paul dining car, coaches, and buffet car (when operated), arriving 
> > Minneapolis at 2:50 p.m.  No. 24 departed Minneapolis with a separate 
> > set of equipment (that had arrived on the preceding day's No. 21), and 
> > picked-up the diner, coaches, and buffet car in St. Paul that had been 
> > set-out by that day's No. 21.  The stated reason for the change was to 
> > effect better connections in Chicago off No. 24, but it acknowledged 
> > that both Nos. 21 and 24 had become erratic time-keepers and that any 
> > delays to No. 21 could no longer be recovered by No. 24.
> >  
> > This regimen was observed until June 9, 1968, at which time Burlington 
> > resumed turning back No. 21's inbound train from Minneapolis the same 
> > afternoon as No. 24.  No. 21 arrived Minneapolis at 3:15 p.m. and No. 24 
> > departed at 3:55 p.m.  By now, the baggage, parlor, and dining cars had 
> > been replaced with a baggage-buffet car, and most days the train 
> > consisted of a single motor, the baggage-buffet, and two to three 
> > (vista-dome) chair cars.  This routine was followed through the end on 
> > service in April 1970. 
> >  
> > On a July 1969 ride on Nos. 7 and 10 (renumbered from Nos. 21 and 24 the 
> > preceding October), No. 7 suffered about two hours of delay due to a 
> > minor freight-train derailment at Savanna.  That afternoon, the Q turned 
> > No. 7 back from St. Paul as No. 10, and ran a Minneapolis-St. Paul "Stub 
> > 10" and "Stub 7" round-trip with an E-unit and two chair cars 
> > (laying-over between inbound and outbound Black Hawks).  Though I didn't 
> > appreciate it at the time, this tactic had undoubtedly been employed 
> > throughout the preceding three decades when No. 21 was running late.  
> > That November, I rode a one-motor, three-car No. 7/No. 10 into and out 
> > of Minneapolis, and was permitted to remain aboard and ride around the 
> > wye and into (and out of) the coach yard.  I don't remember much about 
> > the experience, other than the ride around the wye and back-up move into 
> > the coach yard was crisply executed, and once in the coach yard, the 
> > conductor (who'd invited me to remain aboard) admonished me to remain 
> > aboard as "we won't be here very long."    
> >         
> > ________________________________________________________________________________________
> >  
> > I should apologize for remaining incognito following my departure from 
> > Colorado.  A number of personal matters converged all at once, and the 
> > problems of a comparatively small regional railroad seem to demand the 
> > same amount of time as those of a huge class-one territory.
> >  
> > After several changes in personnel (and taking two years to lay-out two 
> > chapters of the first Zephyr book), Bob Hundman decided to exit the 
> > book-publishing business (or at least the multi-volume book-publishing 
> > business).  Hence, I've concluded the best thing to do is hold-off until 
> > retirement (in 2013), then self-publish the Zephyr manuscript if it 
> > appears there is still a market sufficient to make it viable.  I still 
> > believe there is, though probably in the 900-to-1200 volume range.  I 
> > suspect the University of Minnesota Press would consider publishing the 
> > Twin Zephyr history (to compliment its reprinted Scribbins' Hiawatha and 
> > 400 histories), but probably not the others (and would probably not 
> > entertain multiple volumes) 
> >  
> > Speaking of writing, do you still have a copy of my Naperville wreck 
> > manuscript, and if so, could you please send me a copy?  Thanks.
> >  
> > Good to hear from you.
> >  
> > Bill
> >  
> > > 
> >     Bill:
> >      
> >     I'm not a member of the Q group on Yahoo, but a friend sends me
> >     items he thinks will interest me, including this one.  You're the
> >     obvious one to answer this question, and if you choose to do so, you
> >     can either send the answer back to me and I'll get Norm Metcalf to
> >     post it, or you can send it to Ed DeRouin, as he is a member of the
> >     group.
> >      
> >     I've written over a million words now on my history of the first 10 
> > years of the C&S -- the
> >     pre-Q era.  This one most definitely will never be published!
> >      
> >     Take care,
> >      
> >     Hol
> >     
> >     *Subject:* Re: [CBQ] Time to turn the Zephyr in Minneapolis.
> > 
> >     Dave H wrote:
> >      > One of the docents at the Jackson Street Roundhouse in St Paul MN
> >     is working on a Zephyr Anniversary Display. He asks:
> >      >
> >      >  Will you ask your Burlington Yahoo group about the turn time for
> >     the 
> >      > Zephyr in Minneapolis.  I am particularly interested in steam vs.
> >     the 
> >      > original Zephyr train set in the 40's era.  In the Burlington 
> >      > Historical magazine, Ralph Budd mentions that one train set
> >     replaces 
> >      > two steam engines and six cars on the run to KC, I am sure this
> >     has to 
> >      > do with the turn time of the Steam locomotives but it would be
> >     nice to 
> >      > have more information.  I am using this in the Zephyr Anniversary 
> >      > exhibit at the MTM's Jackson Street Roundhouse.  It looks to me
> >     from 
> >      > the photo record taken by the Star and Tribune that the train set
> >     was 
> >      > turned on the wye after being unloaded then backed into the
> >     Burlington 
> >      > coach yards west of the Minneapolis depot for cleaning and fueling 
> >      > before being pulled back into the depot for the return trip.
> >      >
> >      > Thanks in advance
> >      >
> >      > Dave H
> >      >
>




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