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[CBQ] Joint Line [was] Re: [DRGW] Re: The third rail on D&RG's Denver Pu

To: DRGW@yahoogroups.com, cbq@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CBQ] Joint Line [was] Re: [DRGW] Re: The third rail on D&RG's Denver Pueblo line.
From: Norm Metcalf <n.metcalf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:35:36 -0600
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HOL WAGNER wrote:
> Though the term "Joint Line" was not employed in either the 1899 or more 
> detailed 1900 agreements that created the joint operation between Denver 
> and Pueblo, the term was used by both C&S and Santa Fe employees and 
> officials right from the start.  The first "official" use of the name I 
> have encountered is a Santa Fe claim form (Form 506 Special), of which 
> 1,000 were printed in June 1901, carrying the heading
> "Joint Line. The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway Company, The 
> Colorado & Southern Railway Company."
>  
> Hol Wagner
> 
>   
>     Mark Sellars wrote:
>      > Greetings All,
>      > 
>      > 1. Joint Line.
>      >     Came into being in August 1899 with agreement - the Joint
>     Operating Agreement" - between C&S and AT&SF to operate over each
>     others lines between Denver and Pueblo. The agreement did not refer
>     to a Joint Line as such.
>      > My guess is that the C&S men referred to the "Old Line" (ie the
>     old D&NO line) but referred to the ATSF line as the "Joint Line".
>     The nickname, however it came up, soon caught on.
>      > The D&RG was not a party to this agreement.
>      > The original agreement was periodically renewed.
>      > 
>      > 2. The D&RGW
>      >    In 1918 the USRA took over the management of the nation's RRs.
>      >    It forced the AT&SF and the D&RGW to 'double track' their
>     respective lines by the use of cross overs. What, if any say the RRs
>     had to say at the time about this proposal, I do not know.
>      >    But the arrangement worked so well that........... a formal
>     "Double Track Agreement was not signed till 1936! 
>      > 
>      > 3. Treaty of Boston.
>      >      It is difficult to say for certain from afar.
>      > But with the Treaty of Boston signed in 1880 and eighteen months
>     later the D&RG laying the third rail, I suspect the common
>     denominators were Jay Gould and William Barstow Strong, both experts
>     in Grand Strategy (but for different reasons).
>      >     It did not take long, apparently for the Treaty to become
>     'fluid'.
>      >     Perhaps the D&RG offered the third rail as a way of
>     countering a move by the AT&Sf in another direction.
>      >     By the way Gould arranged the funding for the 1881-82
>     expansion of the D&RGW, including the third rail.
>      >     But perhaps the D&RG would have done it earlier if it had had
>     the funds; the D&RG was not over flush with money in late 1870s when
>     it had to look to its own resources to raise funds.
>      > The third rail was put down at a time well before the CRIP and
>     the Mopac reached. Colorado.
>      > 
>      > A very interesting time in Colorado to be sure.
>      > 
>      > Thanks for your help.
>      > 
>      > regards, Mark
>      >
>      >
>      > ----- Original Message ----
>      > From: Jerry Day <jerry474@comcast.net <mailto:jerry474@comcast.net>>
>      > To: DRGW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DRGW@yahoogroups.com>
>      > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:39:58 AM
>      > Subject: [DRGW] Re: The third rail on D&RG's Denver Pueblo line.
>      >
>      >
>      > Mark:
>      >
>      > I guess it was for more than one reason that the D&RG laid third
>     rail
>      > from Denver to Pueblo. The D&RG Board of Director minutes for the
>      > peroid indicate the D&RG realized they were being surrounded by
>      > standard gauge railroads. The D&RG continued to build narrow gauge
>      > for many more years, but the BOD clearly recognized that the future
>      > was standard gauge.
>      >
>      > The others were correct to point out the deal with the AT&SF, but
>      > that was short term, the long term threat from other standard gauge
>      > lines is what pushed the movement toward dual or standard gauge.
>      >
>      > Jerry Day
>      >
>      > --- In DRGW@yahoogroups <mailto:DRGW@yahoogroups>. com, Mark
>     Sellars <sellarsmark_ aus@...> wrote:
>      >> Greetings All
>      >> 
>      >> In 1881 the D&RG started to lay a third rail to allow standard gage
>      > rolling stock to operate between Pueblo and Denver. The work was
>      > probably completed in1882.
>      >> 
>      >> Did the initiative arise out of the "Treaty of Boston"? Or was
>      > it just to increase revenue?
>      >> 
>      >> Presumably the locomotives were AT&SF.
>      >> Did the D&RG soon after 1882, acquire SG locomotives to operate on
>      > the line or did they 'lease' them from the UP?
>      >> When did they start to acquire SG freight cars?
>      >> 
>      >> Can anyone direct me to some reading/ information on this matter?
>      >> Regards, Mark
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >


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