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Re: [BRHSlist] Different Empire Builder question

To: BRHSlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BRHSlist] Different Empire Builder question
From: "Dennis C. Henry" <dchenry@gac.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:56:28 -0600
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Russ and Wollffee,

The westbound NCL (No. 25) and westbound EB (No. 31) were not combined in 
any season until later 1967, when there was an effective reduction to two 
daytime trains in each direction on the Q's line to St. Paul.  The 
departure times were at least two hours apart.  However, beginning with the 
winter schedule in late 1967, 25&31 began running on a single schedule, 
with departure from CUS at 1:15 PM and arrival at St. Paul at 8:00 PM.  The 
westbound Afternoon Zephyr ceased to exist as a separate train.  The 
westbound NCL and EB were run as separate sections, a few minutes apart 
during the heavy seasons of 1967-68, but by 1969 were one very big train in 
the summer, with three stops at smaller stations.  Without getting into too 
many details, I would remind the old hands about the Friday and Sunday 
westbound-only Afternoon Zephyr which ran on a late afternoon departure 
schedule from CUS, due to regulatory pressure from the State of 
Illinois.  There was no separate eastbound weekend schedule.  The westbound 
Morning Zephyr and its return as the eastbound Afternoon Zephyr ran as 
(increasingly smaller) separate schedules right up to the end, on May 1, 
1971, in the BN era.

The year-round combining of Nos. 26-32-22 eastbound from St. Paul also 
began in late 1967, when the Morning Zephyr No. 22 effectively ceased to 
exist.  This "North Coast Zephyr Builder" as Jim Boyd coined it, ran in two 
sections during summer and holiday periods, with the Zephyr's two or three 
Budd cars usually at the head end of the first section, which was otherwise 
the Empire Builder.  The NCL followed right behind, often with foreign road 
tour sleepers (especially SP) in the summer.  By 1969, the monster train 
was rarely split up, even in the summer, and multiple stops at the stations 
made schedule keeping impossible, even with five E-9's.  When the train was 
over about 22 cars, it would have to wye into CUS in a backup move that 
delayed its arrival even farther.  I have correspondence with the 
Burlington's passenger traffic manager in which he admits that " running 
excessive-length trains has drawn justifiable criticism for the 
deterioration in the timekeeping in our service."

I would recommend Fred Frailey's "Twilight of the Great Trains" for a good 
discussion with consist and schedule examples of the Burlington's service 
in its last decade, as well as interviews with some of those involved in 
the service.  I'm sure that there are many others on this list who can 
provide additional first-hand experiences with photo and film evidence for 
the examples cited.  The Green Frog video "Chicago's Passenger Trains", 
Vol. 1 is another good source, although there are some errors of 
identification therein.

Dennis Henry

At 04:44 PM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>In the 65-67 period 25-31 and 26-32 were usually combined
>during the late fall to late spring with the possible
>exception of around holidays. The heavy ridership was during
>the summer.
>
>These trains were easy to combine as they ran on almost the
>same schedule.
>
>Don't know the answer to other question.
>
>Russ
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: wollffee
>   To: BRHSlist@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, 18 November, 2003 15:11
>   Subject: [BRHSlist] Different Empire Builder question
>
>
>   I have seen photos of CB&Q E8/9's pulling a combined Empire
>   Builder/North Coast Limited from Chicago to Minneapolis.  Was this
>   only done near the end, when those trains had shrunk in size?  Was it
>   only done occaisionally or did it become the regular consist?  In the
>   early '50s they were 2 seperate trains weren't they?  Also, did CB&Q
>   keep running their own trains to Minneapolis until 1970?

Dennis C. Henry, Owner and General Manager
Brass Car Sides                                 Phone: (507) 931-2784
715 South 7th St.                                       e-mail: 
dchenry@gac.edu
St. Peter, MN  56082-1435                               v-mail: (507) 933-7314
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