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To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
From: "LZadnichek@aol.com [CBQ]" <CBQ@yahoogroups.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 15:49:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Steam Roster Disposition Dates
Reply-To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
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September 14, 2015
=20
Hol - Appreciate your additional interesting comments. Best Regards -  Loui=
s
=20
=20
In a message dated 9/14/2015 2:45:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20=20
CBQ@yahoogroups.com writes:


Louis:

Condemned was a late addition to the  terminology used when dropping a=20
locomotive from service.  By the time it  came into use, there was no quest=
ion=20
that stored steam locomotives would not  be returned to service, and that=20
term essentially replaced both of the stored  terms -- serviceable and=20
unserviceable.  But condemned locomotives were  still on the roster until t=
hey were=20
officially retired -- and then sold for  scrap (since by this time the=20
railroad was no longer scrapping locomotives  itself).

Hol

=20
____________________________________
 To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015  14:46:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [CBQ] Steam Roster Disposition Dates [2  Attachments]


=20
[_Attachment(s)_ (mip://1670f920/default.html#TopText)  from=20=20
LZadnichek@aol.com included below]=20=20
September 14,  2015
=20
Hol - Thanks. That answers that. One last question. How does the term=20=20
"Condemned" that appears on Locomotive Assignment Sheets fit into the roste=
r=20=20
sequence of "Retired" and "Sold For Scrap?"
=20
I'm attaching two Locomotive Assignment Sheets for the period of  July=20
through December 1960. They date to the time my late father M.L.  Zadnichek=
 was=20
Ottumwa Division Superintendent. Note on both sheets at top far  right the=
=20
column of steam locomotive numbers under the heading  "Condemned."
=20
Would "Condemned" mean the same as "Retired?" Note the difference in the =
=20
two sheets as steam locomotives were leaving the property to be scrapped an=
d=20=20
were dropped from the list. Also, note that Mark Twain Zephyr diesel=20=20
locomotive 9903 appears at the bottom of the July-September List, but is go=
ne=20=20
from the October-December List.
=20
Also, perhaps, more interesting are the remaining steam locomotives=20=20
identified on various divisions. Is it correct to assume these locomotives =
 were=20
considered at the time to be stored serviceable with the  exception of No. =
35=20
that is clearly marked Exhibition Engine (Exh. Eng.)? Your  thoughts and=20
comments would be appreciated. Best Regards -  Louis=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
In a message dated 9/9/2015 11:16:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20=20
CBQ@yahoogroups.com writes:


Louis:

Usually a locomotive had been stored either  serviceable or unserviceable=20
before it was officially retired, though this  was not always the case.  Bu=
t=20
the date retired is the official date it  was dropped from company records=
=20
and no longer existed as far as the  operating department was concerned. =
=20
Once officially retired the  locomotive was usually pretty quickly sold for=
=20
scrap and moved to the  property of the purchaser, or moved to Eola and=20
scrapped by the  company.  When a locomotive was in really poor condition a=
nd it=20
was not  considered practical or safe to move it to Eola, it would be scrap=
ped=20
where  it was, the Denver joint shops and Lincoln both scrapping=20
locomotives into  the mid-1950s.  After that time, however, virtually all Q=
 steam=20=20
locomotives were sold for scrap.  On the C&S a good many  locomotives were=
=20
scrapped by the company at the Seventh Street (Rice Yard)  complex in the l=
ate=20
1950s-early 1960s.  And the FW&D scrapped  locomotives at Childress but not=
=20
Fort Worth.  By 1960 the Q was selling  everything to Northwest Steel & Wir=
e=20
at Sterling, Ill., while the  C&S and FW&D were shipping locomotives to=20
Commercial Metals Co. in  Houston.

Hol

=20
____________________________________
 To: cbq@yahoogroups.com
From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 7 Sep  2015 13:30:49 -0400
Subject: [CBQ] Steam Roster Disposition  Dates


=20
=20
September 7,  2015
=20
Hol and Group - I have some questions on the disposition dates shown  for=20
steam power in the back of the Corbin book.=20
=20
Where "retired" is shown preceding the date, is that the date the=20=20
Mechanical Department at the Chicago General Offices wrote the locomotive  =
off the=20
books?  If so, then is it correct to assume that  a communication then went=
=20
out to the division master mechanic to take  that locomotive out of service=
=20
(if it hadn't already been  done) and either store it for scrap at whatever=
=20=20
roundhouse it was located, or move it dead-in-train to a central  location=
=20
(such as Galesburg on Lines East or Lincoln on Lines West) for  eventual sa=
le=20
as scrap? Continuing, isn't it possible that a locomotive  after being=20
"retired" could stay on the property for an extended amount of  time in a s=
crap=20
line waiting for scrap prices to increase if they were low  at the time of=
=20
retirement?
=20
Where "sold for scrap" is shown preceding the date, that's much more=20=20
definitive meaning the actual date the locomotive was sold to a scrap  comp=
any to=20
be dismantled, correct? I would think that the contract  with the scrap=20
company would stipulate that the locomotive had to be  delivered within a=20
certain time frame for the quoted price to be  honored, say 30 days, as mar=
ket=20
prices then and now do fluctuate. I've never  seen an existing scrap contra=
ct=20
for a Q steam locomotive, but, having spent  many years in the scrap=20
business, I would speculate the locomotives with  their tenders were purcha=
sed on a=20
lump sum basis calculated from their  recorded official construction=20
weights including delivery at the Q's expense  to the scrap yard.
=20
I would really enjoy seeing a future BRHS Bulletin article on just how  the=
=20
Q went about retiring and selling their steam power during dieselization =
=20
following World War Two. There had to be some kind of measured  corporate=20
plan on what classes of steam power were to be eliminated  first in conjunc=
tion=20
with what divisions were to be first dieselized  and "why." Dieselization=20
as I understand was commenced on Lines West on the  Casper, WY, division in=
=20
the early 1950s due to poor water conditions and the  high expense of=20
maintaining water treatment plants, correct? Dieselization  concluded on Li=
nes East=20
on the Beardstown, IL, division not  quite 10 years later where coal and=20
water were plentiful and  inexpensive.=20
=20
As for classes, it seems for the most part dieselization  was first focused=
=20
upon passenger and switching locomotives, then  expanded into road freight=
=20
locomotives. The Q as I understand took a more  "conservative" stance on=20
dieselization than some competitors that purchased  diesels as fast as they=
=20
could be built to quickly replace their steam power.  Other roads rushed to=
=20
dieselize where as the Q held-on to 2-8-2s, 2-10-4s,  4-6-4s and 4-8-4s tha=
t=20
remained in serviceable condition into the late  1950s. Although the Q itse=
lf=20
had virtually dieselized its yard, freight  and passenger train operations=
=20
by 1955, it still rostered a good number of  serviceable steam locomotives=
=20
that were stored at Galesburg and Lincoln  for seasonal traffic surges.
=20
What brings all this up is that in collecting digital images of Q  steam=20
power I occasionally come across discrepancies in image  dates and=20
retired/sold for scrap dates. Some of the image dates can be  considered qu=
estionable,=20
but some I think are accurate. So, when I find an  image of an O-1-A under=
=20
steam on such-and-such a date, but the Corbin book  says the O-1-A had been=
=20
retired prior to that date, I  wonder..... Is it possible that a "retired"=
=20
but still serviceable  locomotive could be fired-up and used for a short=20
amount of time, or  does "retired" mean it never ran again after that speci=
fic=20=20
date?  I think sold for scrap dates are chiseled in stone and the  locomoti=
ve=20
had been delivered to a scrap yard and dismantled by 30 or so  days from=20
the date. I would appreciate any thoughts or comments on this  subject. Bes=
t=20
Labor Day Wishes - Louis
=20
Louis Zadnichek II
Fairhope, AL
=20
=20
=20
=20=20=20
=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20


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<FONT id=role_document 
color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV>September 14, 2015</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hol - Appreciate your additional interesting comments. Best Regards - 
Louis</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/14/2015 2:45:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
CBQ@yahoogroups.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT 
  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><BR><BR><!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
  <DIV dir=ltr>Louis:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Condemned was a late addition to the 
  terminology used when dropping a locomotive from service.&nbsp; By the time it 
  came into use, there was no question that stored steam locomotives would not 
  be returned to service, and that term essentially replaced both of the stored 
  terms -- serviceable and unserviceable.&nbsp; But condemned locomotives were 
  still on the roster until they were officially retired -- and then sold for 
  scrap (since by this time the railroad was no longer scrapping locomotives 
  itself).<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Hol<BR>&nbsp;<BR>
  <DIV>
  <HR id=stopSpelling>
  To: CBQ@yahoogroups.com<BR>From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com<BR>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 
  14:46:07 -0400<BR>Subject: Re: [CBQ] Steam Roster Disposition Dates [2 
  Attachments]<BR><BR><SPAN style="DISPLAY: none">&nbsp;</SPAN> 
  <DIV id=ecxygrp-mlmsg>
  <DIV id=ecxygrp-msg>
  <DIV id=ecxygrp-text><SPAN 
  style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: 700; DISPLAY: block">[<A title=#TopText 
  style="TEXT-DECORATION: none" 
  href="mip://1670f920/default.html#TopText">Attachment(s)</A> from 
  LZadnichek@aol.com included below]</SPAN> <FONT id=ecxrole_document 
  color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT id=ecxrole_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>September 14, 
  2015</FONT></DIV><FONT id=ecxrole_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Hol - Thanks. That answers that. One last question. How does the term 
  "Condemned" that appears on Locomotive Assignment Sheets fit into the roster 
  sequence of "Retired" and "Sold For Scrap?"</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I'm attaching two Locomotive Assignment Sheets&nbsp;for the period of 
  July through December 1960. They date to the time my&nbsp;late father M.L. 
  Zadnichek was Ottumwa Division Superintendent. Note on both sheets at top far 
  right the column of&nbsp;steam locomotive numbers under the heading 
  "Condemned."</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Would "Condemned" mean the same as "Retired?" Note the difference in the 
  two sheets as steam locomotives were leaving the property to be scrapped and 
  were dropped from the list. Also, note that Mark Twain Zephyr diesel 
  locomotive 9903 appears at the bottom of the July-September List, but is gone 
  from the October-December List.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Also, perhaps, more interesting are the remaining steam locomotives 
  identified on various divisions. Is it correct to assume these locomotives 
  were considered at the time&nbsp;to be&nbsp;stored serviceable with the 
  exception of No. 35 that is clearly marked Exhibition Engine (Exh. Eng.)? Your 
  thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Best Regards - 
  Louis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>In a message dated 9/9/2015 11:16:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
  CBQ@yahoogroups.com writes:</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT 
    style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 
    face=Arial><BR><BR>
    <DIV dir=ltr>Louis:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Usually a locomotive had been stored either 
    serviceable or unserviceable before it was officially retired, though this 
    was not always the case.&nbsp; But the date retired is the official date it 
    was dropped from company records and no longer existed as far as the 
    operating department was concerned.&nbsp; Once officially retired the 
    locomotive was usually pretty quickly sold for scrap and moved to the 
    property of the purchaser, or&nbsp;moved to Eola and scrapped by the 
    company.&nbsp; When a locomotive was in really poor condition and it was not 
    considered practical or safe to move it to Eola, it would be scrapped where 
    it was, the Denver joint shops and Lincoln both scrapping locomotives into 
    the mid-1950s.&nbsp; After that time, however, virtually all Q steam 
    locomotives were sold for scrap.&nbsp; On the C&amp;S a good many 
    locomotives were scrapped by the company at the Seventh Street (Rice Yard) 
    complex in the late 1950s-early 1960s.&nbsp; And the FW&amp;D scrapped 
    locomotives at Childress but not Fort Worth.&nbsp; By 1960 the Q was selling 
    everything to Northwest Steel &amp; Wire at Sterling, Ill., while the 
    C&amp;S and FW&amp;D were shipping locomotives to Commercial Metals Co. in 
    Houston.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Hol<BR>&nbsp;<BR>
    <DIV>
    <HR id=ecxstopSpelling>
    To: cbq@yahoogroups.com<BR>From: CBQ@yahoogroups.com<BR>Date: Mon, 7 Sep 
    2015 13:30:49 -0400<BR>Subject: [CBQ] Steam Roster Disposition 
    Dates<BR><BR><SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN> 
    <DIV id=ecxygrp-mlmsg>
    <DIV id=ecxygrp-msg>
    <DIV id=ecxygrp-text><FONT id=ecxrole_document color=#000000 size=2 
    face=Arial></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT id=ecxrole_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>September 7, 
    2015</FONT></DIV><FONT id=ecxrole_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Hol and Group - I have some questions on the disposition dates shown 
    for steam power in the back of the Corbin book. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Where "retired" is shown preceding the date, is that the date the 
    Mechanical Department at the Chicago General Offices wrote the locomotive 
    off the books?&nbsp; If so, then is it correct to assume that 
    a&nbsp;communication then went out to the division master mechanic to take 
    that locomotive out of service (if it hadn't already been 
    done)&nbsp;and&nbsp;either store it for scrap&nbsp;at&nbsp;whatever 
    roundhouse it was located, or move it&nbsp;dead-in-train to a central 
    location (such as Galesburg on Lines East or Lincoln on Lines West) for 
    eventual&nbsp;sale as scrap? Continuing, isn't it possible that a locomotive 
    after being "retired" could stay on the property for an extended amount of 
    time in a scrap line waiting for scrap prices to increase if they were low 
    at the time of retirement?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Where "sold for scrap" is shown preceding the date, that's much more 
    definitive meaning the actual date the locomotive was sold to a scrap 
    company to be dismantled, correct?&nbsp;I would think that&nbsp;the contract 
    with the scrap company would stipulate that the locomotive&nbsp;had to be 
    delivered within a certain time frame for the&nbsp;quoted price to be 
    honored, say 30 days, as market prices then and now do fluctuate. I've never 
    seen an existing scrap contract for a Q steam locomotive, but, having spent 
    many years in the scrap business, I would speculate the locomotives with 
    their tenders were purchased on a lump sum basis calculated from their 
    recorded official construction weights including delivery at the Q's expense 
    to the scrap yard.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I would really enjoy seeing a future BRHS Bulletin article on just how 
    the Q went about retiring and selling their steam power during dieselization 
    following World War Two. There had to be some kind of&nbsp;measured 
    corporate plan&nbsp;on what classes of steam power were to be eliminated 
    first in conjunction&nbsp;with what divisions were to be first dieselized 
    and "why." Dieselization as I understand was commenced on Lines West on the 
    Casper, WY, division in the early 1950s due to poor water conditions and the 
    high expense of maintaining water treatment plants, correct? Dieselization 
    concluded on Lines East on the Beardstown, IL, division&nbsp;not 
    quite&nbsp;10 years later where coal and water were plentiful and 
    inexpensive. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>As for&nbsp;classes, it seems for the&nbsp;most part&nbsp;dieselization 
    was first focused upon passenger&nbsp;and switching locomotives, then 
    expanded into road freight locomotives. The Q as I understand took a more 
    "conservative" stance on dieselization than some competitors that purchased 
    diesels as fast as they could be built to quickly replace their steam power. 
    Other roads rushed to dieselize where as the Q held-on to 2-8-2s, 2-10-4s, 
    4-6-4s and 4-8-4s that remained in serviceable condition into the late 
    1950s. Although the Q itself had virtually dieselized&nbsp;its yard, freight 
    and passenger train operations by 1955, it still rostered a good number of 
    serviceable steam locomotives that were&nbsp;stored at Galesburg and Lincoln 
    for seasonal traffic surges.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>What brings all this up is that in&nbsp;collecting digital images of Q 
    steam power I occasionally come across discrepancies&nbsp;in&nbsp;image 
    dates and&nbsp;retired/sold for scrap dates. Some of the image dates can be 
    considered questionable, but some I think are accurate. So, when I find an 
    image of an O-1-A under steam on such-and-such a date, but the Corbin book 
    says&nbsp;the O-1-A had&nbsp;been retired prior to that date, I 
    wonder.....&nbsp;Is it possible that a "retired" but still serviceable 
    locomotive could be fired-up and used for a short amount&nbsp;of time, or 
    does "retired" mean it never ran again after that specific 
    date?&nbsp;&nbsp;I think sold for scrap dates are chiseled in stone and the 
    locomotive had been delivered to a scrap yard and dismantled by 30 or so 
    days from the date. I would appreciate any thoughts or comments on this 
    subject. Best Labor Day Wishes - Louis</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Louis Zadnichek II</DIV>
    <DIV>Fairhope, AL</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
    <P><BR><BR></P></DIV>
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