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[CBQ] Re: FW: C&S Coach

To: cbq@yahoogroups.com, Union_Pacific@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CBQ] Re: FW: C&S Coach
From: Norm Metcalf <n.metcalf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:22:10 -0600
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>
> By permission of Hol Wagner:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *from:* Wagner, Hol
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* C&S Coach
>
> Mike:
>
> I don’t usually interject myself into online conversations such as the 
> ongoing one over the coach body you have acquired, but there is so 
> much misinformation floating around out there that I feel obligated to 
> set things as straight as possible. “Why me?,” you’re probably asking. 
> I’m not trying to set myself up as the ultimate authority on things 
> C&S, but I’m probably in a better position than most in that regard. I 
> researched and authored “The Colorado Road” back in 1971 – a detailed 
> history of the motive power and equipment of the C&S and its 
> subsidiary companies. In doing so, I researched all railroad records 
> still held by the company and accessible at the time dealing with 
> equipment and compiled rosters based on that information. There was no 
> information in those records, however, on renumbering from predecessor 
> road numbers. Since that time, however, vast quantities of records 
> stored in the Denver shops have been saved by the Colorado Railroad 
> Museum and are now accessible for research. And, since 2004, I have 
> been researching another volume, “Colorado & Southern: The First 10 
> Years, 1899-1908,” dealing with the organization and early operations 
> of the road. In doing so, I have gone through nearly all the material 
> in the CRRM’s Robert W. Richardson Library. What follows, then, is my 
> best effort to reconstruct the history of your coach based on railroad 
> records.
>
> First off, C&S records are quite often in error as to carbuilders, as 
> the information was simply not in the records acquired by the C&S upon 
> its formation near the end of 1898. On occasion, builder names were 
> assigned to cars when there is no evidence that the assigned builder 
> actually constructed the car. I’m not saying that’s the case with your 
> car, but the only way to verify that it was in fact built by Pullman 
> is to search for the Pullman lot number stamped in numerous locations 
> on cars by that builder. I believe Bob Webber and Ted Anderson have 
> told you where to look for such stampings. One thing, however, seems 
> virtually certain: Nathaniel Thayer had nothing whatsoever to do with 
> this car. It was, in all likelihood, ordered by Gen. Grenville M. 
> Dodge or one of his associates for the Denver, Texas & Fort Worth 
> Railroad, built by Dodge in 1887-88 to fill the gap between Pueblo, 
> Colo., and the New Mexico-Texas line. When completed in 1888, the 
> Denver-to-Fort Worth system of three railroads (Denver, Texas & Gulf 
> from Denver to Pueblo; Denver, Texas & Fort Worth from Pueblo to the 
> Texas line; and Fort Worth & Denver City from Texline, Texas, to Fort 
> Worth) was controlled by Dodge and his associates and was operated as 
> the Pan-Handle Route. It was in all likelihood for this system that 
> the car was ordered, but not by Thayer, who had absolutely no 
> connection with Dodge’s western ventures. What railroad name and 
> number the car carried at this time is simply not a matter for which 
> we have yet uncovered documentation.
>
> Now, for what IS known about your car. In April 1890 the Union 
> Pacific, Denver & Gulf Railway was formed, consolidating the Union 
> Pacific’s Colorado subsidiaries with Dodge’s Denver-Fort Worth system. 
> The Fort Worth & Denver City, under Texas law, was not included in the 
> consolidation but was operated as part of the UPD&G system. At this 
> time, your coach was given a UPD&G number: 371. UPD&G equipment was 
> initially assigned numbers within the Union Pacific numbering system, 
> though after the 1893 receivership of both the UP and UPD&G, the 
> Colorado company in 1896 devised a numbering system of its own and 
> began renumbering cars into it. But that task was not completed by the 
> time the Colorado & Southern was organized in 1898 to take control of 
> the UPD&G properties (and also those of the narrow gauge Denver, 
> Leadville & Gunnison). So, at the time the C&S was formed, the coach 
> was still numbered UPD&G 371. Under a renumbering scheme produced by 
> the motive power department of the new railroad and published on Jan. 
> 1, 1899, UPD&G 371 was to become C&S 57, and this renumbering was in 
> fact accomplished at Denver on May 27, 1899. Shopping records indicate 
> the 57 was first overhauled by the C&S in its new Seventh Street shops 
> in Denver during 1902, entering the shops on June 3 and emerging on 
> July 1, a total of $155.30 having been spent on the work, $81.65 for 
> materials and $73.65 for labor. The car retained the number 57 until 
> the C&S realized its original passenger car numbering system was 
> faulty, since it assigned the numbers 1-100 to standard gauge cars and 
> the numbers 101 and above to narrow gauge cars. There was little need 
> for more than 100 numbers for narrow gauge passenger cars, but a 
> pressing need for more number slots for standard gauge cars. So in 
> June 1906 a renumbering scheme was devised that assigned numbers from 
> 1 to 200 to narrow gauge equipment and the numbers from 201 on up to 
> standard gauge cars, with standard gauge coaches beginning at 501. 
> Under this scheme, renumbering actually got underway around the start 
> of 1907, and coach 57 was renumbered 513 at Denver on January 8, 1907. 
> It would keep this number the remainder of its revenue service career, 
> until it was retired from passenger service in late 1927 and converted 
> to company service as a bunk car and renumbered C&S 99924 in December 
> 1927. It remained in use as a bunk car until March 1943, when it was 
> retired and officially listed as scrapped at Denver. But as we know, 
> the carbody was actually placed on the ground near the roundhouse in 
> Cheyenne for use by railroad crews. And the rest is well documented.
>
> The number C&S 5669 on the door plate is most certainly a casting 
> pattern number, as virtually every casting employed anywhere on the 
> car would have had – most of the original builder’s castings having 
> been replaced over time by ones produced in the railroad’s own foundry 
> at the Denver shops. Larger castings were produced for the railroad by 
> an independent foundry in Denver, but no such large castings would 
> have been employed on a wooden passenger car such as yours.
>
> I hope this material is helpful, and I would certainly be interested 
> in learning if you are able to locate a Pullman lot number on the car 
> and thus verify its Pullman heritage.
>
>


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